Clothing liberation

biased and judgemental comments

I can be judgemental. I hate the sexualised fashion that is pushed on girls these days. This is nothing to do with the gender roles and everything to do with the sexualisation.

I hate the shorts for girls (ending just below their bottom) and the crop tops. I have told my 11-year old that if she insists on a crop top, I will wear one too. And pick her up from school with it (the look of horror on her face).

Read/listen to Grayson Perry about this as well, he is very interesting and honest about the fetish aspect. Which reminds me I was half way through his book must pick it up again!

Indeed. And the issue of what constitutes cross dressing has arisen on these boards numerous times.

Personally, I disagree with AGP, and not just if it's practiced in front of me and making me complicit.

It doesn't really just fetishise women's clothes, it fetishises their lower status. That to me is the issue.

My point is that's what's available. It's not what's demanded. If I implied that's what women want yes that would be sexist, but I think we don't often get what we want. Easy tumble dry, pockets and give how is it sexist to want to be able to conceal or reveal as you fancy? I find myself buying crap clothes and then having to buy more because they are naff. It's about the lack of choice and cut that means any weight gain means you can't get away with it.

I don't think that's what's happening, but if you do, I can understand why you object.

Feeling a private thrill from what you’re wearing underneath that no one knows about - not a problem, no one cares. Although I’ll wear DP’s briefs when I haven’t done laundry and really there is no thrill there so I don’t get that personally! Just an inconvenient extra amount of material to create that flap.

Getting off on dressing up as a hypersexualised stereotype in the privacy of your own home - go nuts, don’t care, doesn’t affect anyone else.

Bloke wears a flouncy frock around Tesco’s minding your own business just doing your shopping - no issue, be my guest. No one else is involved.

The line comes with the expectation of anyone else’s unconsenting involvement - be that in expecting us to ‘celebrate’ this kink or looking to elicit any kind of reaction about it from people in public places, posting on the public internet about it is included in that (ref the NSPCC rubber man). PP references erections being on show - there’s been several high profile incidences of that. That’s exhibitionism. It’s ok for women to find the fetishisation of women’s clothing for being women’s clothing discomforting, for me it is like a visceral reaction, and it’s not ok to force that upon me by expecting me to cheerlead anyone on or not object to its public display. I’m acutely aware that there are individuals who enjoy women’s distress at this as well and look to induce that (penis visible under flappy skirt, etc). And that’s before you come to the people close to these individuals who are expected to be cool with it all and share clothes. That’s where listening to Tinsel and her experience comes in.

Read/listen to Grayson Perry about this as well, he is very interesting and honest about the fetish aspect. Which reminds me I was half way through his book must pick it up again!

What is sexist is your implication that women are an unquestioning mass "shoe horned" into buying too tight, fast fashion every year.

Fuck this I'm opting for nudism. Might wait till Spring though,- bit nippy.

But what I really don't understand is what other motivation you think women, particular feminists, have here?

You say it's hypocrisy. Do you think there is another reason women question the motivation? Do you think women are trying to ring fence women's clothing for a purpose?

I think quite a few posters, despite the protestations of "wear whatever you want" actually have a bit of a problem about clothes.

Most threads about clothes , hair etc have very biased and judgemental comments. I don't think it's a question of "ring fencing" as hoping clothes designed for women would just disappear. Anything masculine or clothes made for men are always better.

I most certainly don't fit clothes pre baby. How is it sexist to wish for clothes with a little give?

Hopefully this fashion of long hair for girls goes soon. ASAP

Why?

Once we get to a more gender neutral fashion again, I feel thing may be better

Why? What do you mean by "more gender neutral"?

That's because a kilt is a traditional male garment and has been for 100s of years. Kilts were appropriated in the 20th century as female clothes for competitive Scottish country dancing and girls at fee paying schools.

Yes obviously, I understand that. My point is that things can change. Women can take trousers and make them a feminine thing. The same could happen with men and skirts and kilts is an example of that already existing.

I'm not generalising women, I'm clearly generalising the clothes available. We're a lower income householdso maybe that's the difference.

My husband's moan every time we go shopping for him is how poor quality men's clothes are unless he is prepared to go very upmarket. Trying only to buy UK or EU made clothing to avoid clothes made in sweat shops is very difficult for men's clothing except at the top end whereas there are loads of mid range clothes for women which meet that criteria.

I have loads of dresses, skirts and jackets that are 15-20 years old and a couple of jackets that are over 30 years old.

Your sweeping generalisation about women is pretty sexist to be honest. You don't seem to credit women with much independent thought.

men wearing tight stretchy dresses and showing off their erections,

Omg yes that is unacceptable.

Because whether you like it or not, clothing, accessories, hairstyles etc are still very much divided according to sex, and most men do not want to look like a woman, nor do most women want to look like a man.

But there is a big difference in that it's become normal for women to wear trousers, and in many cases it doesn't make them look like a man. So my point earlier was that men and dresses could go the same way. Men could wear masculine dresses and skirts (as some in fact already do) in a way that's not AGP-related, because it's not about "wearing women's clothes". For example when scottish men wear kilts to a special occasion, there is nothing "women's clothes" or "looking like a woman" about it at all.

I sort of agree Laeta but in practice you can get things like men wearing tight stretchy dresses and showing off their erections, which is a form of sexual aggression that impacts on others. I know what you mean about clothes making you feel sexy, and in theory it doesn't matter to me how clothes make someone else feel - except that for males it has more noticable effects, and for some AGP men, bothering others with it is part of the fun IYSWIM.

Hmmm loads of good points here, but I'm not understanding the problem with someone "getting off" from wearing women's clothes.

As long as they don't actually think they ARE a woman. I really don't care.

I wear my hair exceeding short, and wear docs and some may say (not me!!) overtly masculine clothes. However sometimes I want to feel the softness of silky underwear and even stockings.

If I've got a really important meeting and want extra confidence, I may dress very sexily underneath my boring work clothes. And yes I get a thrill from it!

Some women may get the same thrill from wearing boxer shorts and a vest, some men from wearing female undergarments.

Who knows and who cares? As long as it doesn't infringe on my or my daughter's rights and safety. I can't see a problem with it.

I've often wondered why more English men don't wear skirts, especially in summer.

Because whether you like it or not, clothing, accessories, hairstyles etc are still very much divided according to sex, and most men do not want to look like a woman, nor do most women want to look like a man.

I absolutely think people should be able to wear whatever they like and that clothing differences between the sexes are in no way a necessary thing, but we are all products of our culture and upbringing, and what we find appealing or attractiveis very much rooted in that. Dh would look bloody silly (to me and to him) in a skirt.

I've no idea of the motivation of the man in the article, but tbh public autogynephilia makes me feel queasy.

Hopefully this fashion of long hair for girls goes soon. Why? I was hoping long haired men would make a comeback during lockdown but they all seem to have clippers

Hmm, I'm afraid I'm just seeing hypocrisy here.

The line between "wear what you want! wear make-up" and autogynophile seems terribly easy to cross over.

This particular man is wearing the frumpiest outfit imaginable but the attribution of suspicious motives are being made by some of you.

That's because 'frumpy' is often part of the enjoyment. It's not all about traditional ideas of sexy.

But what I really don't understand is what other motivation you think women, particular feminists, have here?

You say it's hypocrisy. Do you think there is another reason women question the motivation? Do you think women are trying to ring fence women's clothing for a purpose?

Personally I think it's usually fairly to see the difference between someone busting gender norms and cocking a snook at stereotypical clothing, and someone getting off on it.

It's about motivation though. If your motivation is to wear a skirt regardless of whether skirts are seen as women's clothing, it's different from wearing a skirt because it's seen as women's clothing.

I really don't care what people wear. There's no hypocrisy. But as we don't know the exact motivations for sure, it makes sense to be cautious in our celebration of it.

why is it always a skirt, heels, makeup?

And why not? Anyone can wear what they want. Back when I was a teenager this wouldn't even had made the news. Well not quite true, it made the news when I wore trousers to secondary school!!

You look at punks from the 70's I bet you can't tell who was male or who was female.

I used to look like a boy as a young teenager with my pixie boots, short hair and donkey jacket.

Hopefully this fashion of long hair for girls goes soon. ASAP. Once we get to a more gender neutral fashion again, I feel thing may be better. As long as we haven't lost ALL our rights by then!

Never thought I'd ever say this but "Bring back the Purdy haircut!!"

It's frustrating though because women are basically shoehorned into fast fashion for a number of reasons. Firstly, our clothes aren't as well made so we're constantly having to replace them. Second, the figure hugging aspect means go up just one size and you have to update your whole wardrobe. Finally women are expected to have more variation, particularly in professional capacity.

All in all it adds up to a hell of a lot of landfill!