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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Supernanny - hanging out with the abusive dads

83 replies

Jeanhatchet · 04/03/2021 07:24

Jo Frost (Supernanny) has begun advocating for the inclusion of "parental alienation" in the Domestic Abuse Bill alongside the vicious men who continue to abuse their ex partners by alleging this in court. On Twitter she is openly engaging with some of the men who regularly stalk, dox and abuse women opposing the term.

It is a term with no validity. It has been rejected by the WHO as a term for abuse.

Women do experience men turning their kids against them but .... that is part of an ongoing pattern of coercive control and abuse. They are covered in law already at 3.1. 76. Serious Crime Act 2015.

Supernanny is not on the side of women. When women disclose to Family court that they've suffered domestic abuse ... their abusers are learning to use "parental alienation" as a counter accusation. It must not become part of the Domestic Abuse Bill. These are dangerous men.

I wrote about the whole thing here if you want a look. www.jeanhatchet.com/post/supernanny-putting-women-on-the-naughty-step

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FeministM · 02/12/2021 07:59

Hi we have raised a total of £1600, they have given us a hearing date of next month, we have created a public fundraiser to go alongside the Crowd Justice page to avoid people needing to send in their email addresses to access the private fundraiser.

Please share the public fundraiser, we will be keeping everyone updated.

www.facebook.com/donate/626801448468920/?fundraiser_source=messages

FeministM · 02/12/2021 07:59

I also think that it's worth remembering that many people on this board aren't women. They are anonymous. Men's rights activists very much read these threads.

knittingaddict · 04/11/2021 09:24

@MrsHusky

i dont get why some women are so convinced men are evil.

my brother was physically, emotionally and mentally abused by his ex wife, to the point during the custody case over contact time with the kids, even social services absolutely panned her horrible behavior, and accused her of serious parental alienation.

Funnily enough, she's became a born again christian since the divorce, and has now turned to emotionally abusing her DD as she has come out as LGBT, but hey.. women aren't abusive are they?

Don't you?

Some men are evil and some are pathetic men who abuse their partners and children. We had one in the family, so I should know. I wouldn't call him evil, but he is a damaged, dangerous, misogynistic individual who shouldn'tbe allowed near women or children.

My brother was the victim of abuse by his wife, but it's men who are the most likely abusers. Also how many man end up killed by their partners compared to women?

FeministM · 03/11/2021 22:52

The Family Court in the UK is the most misogynistic institution we have.

That which oppresses women cannot protect children. As a standard, the Court records all their hearings, for accountability as well as its own records. But in practice these audio recordings often go missing when the judiciary is being held to account. I have experienced these dangerous corruptions as a mother and I am issuing a Call to Action to reform this oppressive Court.

I am represented by Charlotte Proudman, Ms Proudman is at the forefront of changing legislation and she bravely holds the state to account on violence against girls and women. The judiciary have long and well documented history of minimising and dismissing male violence against children and women, commonly called domestic terrorism.

Ms Proudman’s work switches a light on in this hidden world. Violence and child abuse is the most serious issue facing women and children who appeal to the Family Court. The pandemic of violence committed by men against children in their care and against the women in their lives is directly enabled by the Family Court ethos of maintaining parental contact at all costs. These costs all too frequently include a woman’s or a child’s life, or years of continued abuse.

The present failings of the Family Court are directly responsible for “exposing another generation to emotional and physical harm.” So says author Rachel Watson. “By denying domestic abuse, failing to address behavioural problems and awarding equal or sometimes sole parenting roles to unsafe parents, the family courts are conditioning children to believe it's ok for one parent to be in control and hurt others without consequence.”

The Domestic Abuse Act 2021 acknowledged in law that children are victims of domestic abuse in their own right. The Act legislated that abuse victims are entitled to special measures to protect their privacy and to minimise the retraumatisation that is nearly inevitable in reliving violent events in court. These measures include screens, so that the perpetrator cannot see the victim; the perpetrator also can no longer intimidate and manipulate his victims by cross-examining them in court.

In my case these provisions were not followed. My Appeal is a call to action. We must reform this unsafe Court system. My Appeal will particularly highlight the judiciary’s failure to carry out the requirements of the Domestic Abuse Act 2021 Early feminists the Suffragettes were pioneers for child safety. Suffragette action brought about the 1925 Guardianship of Infants Act which gave married women rights to their own children for the first time. We all intuitively know that the child is usually safest with its mother. Yet Mr Justice Lawrence called this basic fairness and common sense “an insult to God”. And although in law women now have rights to their children, in reality men’s rights usually trump the right to safety for women and children.

Enough is enough. It’s not ok for women’s and particularly for children’s safety to be betrayed by the Courts. To contribute to the cost of this Appeal or simply to be kept up to date on its progress please send your email address to [email protected]
All funds are sent directly from Crowd Justice to the barrister Charlotte Proudman.

Kotatsu · 28/10/2021 10:42

Oh yes. My solicitor, and friends who have been through this already, have all warned me to be extremely careful so I don't get accused of parental alienation during my split from my ex.

Bearing in mind, this is from a man who (despite my suggestion to try 'nesting' after the split) decided instead to leave the country for six months and message the kids once a fortnight and even when back in the same country, doesn't bother to even ask to see them more than once a week on average. - ie. He's alienated himself - I'm sure that's not the story he's telling other people though, and he puts on a very good hang-dog act when thanking me for 'letting' him see the kids......

CherryBlossomAutumn · 27/10/2021 23:51

@stopblowingyournose

There will be many friends, family members and co workers of some fathers feeling total sympathy for them being "denied" contact by an alleged spiteful mother, who would be horrified if they knew the real reasons why the mother felt so strongly.

Exactly this.

Exactly this also. Unless you really know a situation, then remember that the vast, vast majority of mothers who are labelled alienators have a story to tell. And what is very telling is that almost all of these men accusers are not worried about their exes parenting. They may say awful things but are okay with continued wars and courts - and if you listen more closely it is clear that a continued war is more important than being at all caring about their children, such paying decent maintenance and keeping consistent steady fatherly support even from afar.

Women’s aid report this more and more. If you look at any separated fathers website it is full of forums talking about how to pay minimum maintenance ‘because she will just spend it’ and how to fight ‘made up’ abuse claims.

I also see it everywhere. My sisters Ex was EA and several concerns about the children who were being manipulated by her Ex - but to hear his family and colleagues, my sisters is a controlling witch who is keeping the kids to herself. None of them know she had to call the police in before she left, none of them believe he is a bad father. And to be fair one reason she didn’t leave earlier was because he presented as such a decent man and good father. But started to treat her very badly, cheated constantly, restricted her access to money and ignored the kids. Suddenly in divorce his interest in the kids ignited, and he wanted 50/50 custody and he got it. But he ended up getting his sister to look after their children so eventually they’ve ended up with her 95%. He won’t admit he couldn’t be bothered to be there for them so PA is the story.

Garriet · 27/10/2021 11:27

@CherryBlossomAutumn

I am always amazed at how many women come on boards like this and say they know so many mothers who alienate their children against the father. So parental alienation is ‘really a thing’. Because I just don’t believe it. Or that it exists but is very rare.

I think most cases people only know ‘anecdotally’ - and I bet my bottom dollar the vastly majority are abusive or neglectful men loudly covering their tracks.

The evidence just doesn’t back up this myth that mothers often use their kids to spite their fathers. Again, I can believe that there are a few, very few, rare cases. However the vast majority of absent parents are men. The vast majority of domestic abuse happens by men to women (and by that this is sustained, controlling, escalating). The vast majority of violence within families is by men to women and children. The vast majority of parental alienation claims are by men who are accused of abuse. The vast majority of abusive father’s are given access and even 50/50 access because the courts do not protect women and kids.

Courts rarely make orders for 50/50 time. Shared care 50/50 really only works for children where there’s consistency and good communication in parenting, which isn’t often the case in families where the matter ends up in court.

I haven’t said I know “so many” alienation cases because indeed it isn’t common (claims of alienation are common, actual intentionally alienating behaviour far less so), but it does happen more often than you are suggesting. This isn’t purely anecdotal, it’s linked to my experience within my job in which I see parental disputes and the details of such on a daily basis.

CherryBlossomAutumn · 26/10/2021 21:13

I am always amazed at how many women come on boards like this and say they know so many mothers who alienate their children against the father. So parental alienation is ‘really a thing’. Because I just don’t believe it. Or that it exists but is very rare.

I think most cases people only know ‘anecdotally’ - and I bet my bottom dollar the vastly majority are abusive or neglectful men loudly covering their tracks.

The evidence just doesn’t back up this myth that mothers often use their kids to spite their fathers. Again, I can believe that there are a few, very few, rare cases. However the vast majority of absent parents are men. The vast majority of domestic abuse happens by men to women (and by that this is sustained, controlling, escalating). The vast majority of violence within families is by men to women and children. The vast majority of parental alienation claims are by men who are accused of abuse. The vast majority of abusive father’s are given access and even 50/50 access because the courts do not protect women and kids.

Enough4me · 26/10/2021 17:01

If a child says no and there evidence of abuse nor neglect, contact could take place through a safe third place for at least 6 months to assess the situation?

nauticant · 25/10/2021 17:38

A programme looking at parental alienation tonight on Radio 4, 20.30:

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0010wz6

Splitting up where children are involved is tricky. Especially when it ends up in the family courts. It’s even more tricky when a child decides they don’t want a relationship with one of the parents.

Over the last two decades a controversial psychological concept has emerged to describe a situation where children - for no apparent reason - decide they don’t want to see one parent. It’s called parental alienation.

Women’s rights organisations argue parental alienation is used to gaslight abused women. Fathers’ rights organisations claim that some mothers make up allegations of abuse to prevent them from seeing their children. And children are caught in the middle.

Sonia Sodha explores the polarizing concept of “parental alienation” and asks how a contested psychological theory has evolved into an increasingly common allegation in the UK family courts.

WhoisRebecca · 23/10/2021 22:04

My DH is a devoted dad. His ex wife left him for another man when Dd was 6 months old. She immediately moved him in, got the 4 year old to call him daddy and accused DH of abuse. The accusation was that he let ds play with a fake poo Bath toy (he was potty training) and he read ds a children’s science book about evolution and she was Christian. She withdrew all the allegations before court, but in the meantime DH went 4 months without seeing his children. She moved city with the new DH and changed the dc school and nursery 3 times.
DH now has EOW and mid week but it’s been a long haul. She still tries to poison the dc against him. We bake bread and the dc try to take it home and she chucks it in the bin. She sent dc here with nits and we treated them - Dd had a slight reaction to the treatment and she accused us of negligence in a court statement.
I’m a feminist. Some might call me a terf. Abuse happens, I don’t dispute it. Male violence and entitlement is a problem. But parental alienation is real.

BloodinGutters · 23/10/2021 21:45

@Avarua

I'm not into cancelling people for their views and I think this thread and your opinion piece is bullying.
Opinions aren’t bullying.
Rebeccajo · 23/10/2021 21:30

Unfortunately many women do not support women who have been abused. This is particularly the case if its their son, or brother. These same women will outright lie and claim that no abuse occurred (even if they witnessed it or the aftermath). Tragically abused women have very little support. Think of Cafcass who routinely dismiss and outright reject claims of abuse in custody cases. Frankly the schizophrenic nature of the media and court system cannot be overstated. On the one hand you have this outrage over the abuse and Tragically the death of women in some cases (think the Sarah Everard case), then when a woman makes a report about being unsafe and experiencing male violence she is called a liar. And has to go through a 'fact finding ' court case to prove she is not making up claims of abuse. Often by other women I might add. A lot of women will do absolutely anything to get male attention and vindication. In my own family court case I was told by my female barrister that the judges like to go home early on a Friday afternoon so we don't want to over run!!!!! I cannot stress and warn women enough when they enter the family court system be prepared for the most misogynistic abuse you have ever experienced.

Enough4me · 23/10/2021 21:23

@NiceGerbil, the courts can listen to older DC, but they start from the neutral position that DC best interests come first, that they should see both parents, that mediation is the way forward, and that DC should not be pulled into the issues or made to take sides. As my eldest was 13 at the time, I was told that she could speak to a 3rd party if she wanted to.

My exH stopped us having mediation before court saying we'd had it before, but he'd lied and blocked mediation before too, and the case still went ahead. He also completed his court form as a big moan all about how difficult his life was and that he did not want me to honest to DC about him refusing maintenance at first. However, I felt my form was taken seriously as I had clear requests to meet DCs needs. Basically everything I asked about was agreed, he was not happy but it made sense for DC (including to have pattern of dates including holiday dates agreed in advance, and for collection at school not outside my home).

If a man was 'quietly' abusive to women & DC the courts would not have evidence to move from the neutral position and if a mother said abuse happened, he could now claim PA to counteract her word.

It's tough as it's not the court's fault, it's poor male behaviour yet again that creates the issues. I'm glad I was only facing an ex that was controlling towards me and that wasn't a risk to DC.

stopblowingyournose · 23/10/2021 20:01

There will be many friends, family members and co workers of some fathers feeling total sympathy for them being "denied" contact by an alleged spiteful mother, who would be horrified if they knew the real reasons why the mother felt so strongly.

Exactly this.

Avarua · 23/10/2021 19:01

I'm not into cancelling people for their views and I think this thread and your opinion piece is bullying.

OhWhyNot · 23/10/2021 18:59

Women can be abusive to

This is from a women who has made a career from humiliating and belittling parents on tv

Garriet · 23/10/2021 13:19

The OP says it’s a campaign to include it in the domestic violence bill, not the DSM. And then says it’s a term with no validity. I disagree.

DraintheBlood · 23/10/2021 10:25

@Garriet

Emotional abuse needs considered as emotional abuse and the best interests of the children need consider as just that, not from the pov that both parents should have ‘rights’ to access when only parental responsibility should be looked at. PA as a concept fucks with perception of rights verses responsibility, it’s a smoke screen and shouldn’t be given more power to have wider scope to further do this.

The behaviour from parents who do this intentionally is emotional abuse, towards the child. Of course it is. It doesn’t always result in the child becoming alienated from the parent though, refusing to see them for no good reason other than the abusive parent’s behaviour. Parental alienation is a potential outcome of this particular type of abuse.

It is always looked at in the courts from the point of view of the best interests of the child - never from a parental “right to access”. So PA as a concept is not at all used by the courts in the way you say it is.

PA is brought up in a large number of cases. In the majority, it’s parents claiming it who are either abusive themselves - so the child’s resistance is down to the “alienated” parent’s own behaviour, or there are other factors such as distress over witnessing acrimonious separation etc. However, it is not a tiny percentage where vindictive parents have purposely driven a wedge between their child and the other parent. It absolutely does happen, and relatively often, although nowhere near as often as other forms of abuse.

But the thread is about JF campaigning/supporting the campaign of groups who are lobbying for PA to be in the dsm & icd so it can be used by the courts in this way.

That’s the point of the thread.

DifficultBloodyWoman · 23/10/2021 09:54

I respectfully disagree.

Parental alienation does exist. It has happened to my own family members. In one case, mother turning children against father, and in the second case, father turning children against mother. Both instances were parental alienation and both were wrong.

I don’t know about SuperNanny’s role in this campaign but I do believe it should be included in the Domestic Abuse Bill. Every allegation of parental alienation should be investigated. Just because some allegations turn out to be false does not mean that they all are.

Parental alienation doesn’t need to be pathologized but the act of one parent influencing a child against the other does exist.

Mumoblue · 23/10/2021 09:37

Claiming parental alienation seems to be every abusive man’s go-to. My ex has already preemptively declared he’ll take me to court for full custody for “turning DS against him” if I ever tell our son that my ex cheated on me (never mind that he DID cheat on me- our son is 1, so it doesn’t come up in conversation!!)

My dad also tried to claim the same shit to get sympathy off his new girlfriends, but they very quickly found out he was lying because he never made an effort to see us even when he was supposed to.

Do I think parental alienation exists? Yes. Do I think it’s as big a problem as is being claimed? No.

Garriet · 23/10/2021 09:18

Emotional abuse needs considered as emotional abuse and the best interests of the children need consider as just that, not from the pov that both parents should have ‘rights’ to access when only parental responsibility should be looked at. PA as a concept fucks with perception of rights verses responsibility, it’s a smoke screen and shouldn’t be given more power to have wider scope to further do this.

The behaviour from parents who do this intentionally is emotional abuse, towards the child. Of course it is. It doesn’t always result in the child becoming alienated from the parent though, refusing to see them for no good reason other than the abusive parent’s behaviour. Parental alienation is a potential outcome of this particular type of abuse.

It is always looked at in the courts from the point of view of the best interests of the child - never from a parental “right to access”. So PA as a concept is not at all used by the courts in the way you say it is.

PA is brought up in a large number of cases. In the majority, it’s parents claiming it who are either abusive themselves - so the child’s resistance is down to the “alienated” parent’s own behaviour, or there are other factors such as distress over witnessing acrimonious separation etc. However, it is not a tiny percentage where vindictive parents have purposely driven a wedge between their child and the other parent. It absolutely does happen, and relatively often, although nowhere near as often as other forms of abuse.

DancyNancy · 23/10/2021 09:17

I know of several women who have used their children as pawns in relationships. Withholding access at the last minute and cursing and bad mouthing the dad to the children, even tagging teenage children in social media posts belittling the father.
I'm not saying the men were perfect but they all love their child and try to be good dad's. The troubles of the relationship were brought in to the division of parenting and it was quite clear these women were using access it to hurt the man in an act of revenge.
The kids suffered. One of these men lost a new relationship with the stress and strain of his ex's constant abuse. Another father is now estranged from his children.
There are also plenty of dead beat dad's who don't bother, and dad's that mother's know are abusive so they withhold access for valid reasons.
But it does happen that women use access as a weapon too.
Dads have little to no rights.
So I dunno about Supernanny cause I don't like her but it does need to come in to discussion that this happens

WarriorN · 23/10/2021 08:19

Sonia is really good isn't she?

www.womensaid.org.uk/parental-alienation-a-dangerous-and-harmful-concept/

DraintheBlood · 23/10/2021 08:05

@Garriet

You’re wrong to say it is a term that has no validity. Parental Alienation Syndrome as a medical disorder has been discredited. But sadly there are some parents who, out of vindictiveness or bitterness, intentionally turn their children against their other parent with no justification for doing so, and this should absolutely be treated as domestic abuse.

Is the term misused by abusers? Yes, and it’s usually fairly easy to uncover this. Is it used by parents who might not be abusers but have got things wrong in separation and divorce and the children are experiencing real distress? Yes.

But you simply cannot say it doesn’t exist or doesn’t happen.

False memory syndrome has been discredited, refused entry to the dsm and icd repeatedly, the people who came with it kicked out of all psych associations world wide and it’s widely accepted that they were peadophiles who made up fms to silence their daughter who was victim. Jennifer Freyd. Who is the woman responsible for DARVO.

Does that mean no one ever has false memories? Does that mean no therapist has ever coached a patient to come up with false memories?

Probably not. But the odd rare predatory therapist manipulating a patient into false memories in no way disproves the wealth of evidence that recovered memories are real and that the fms association were just a peadophile group seeking to silence their victims.

PA is no different. Just because a small % of parents do this (and both my parents did this so I know it’s effects first hand) doesn’t mean it should be considered as a separate type of abuse from emotional abuse when going through the court system.

Btw I highly recommend Jennifer Freyd’s book betrayal trauma theory. Despite being the victim at the centre of fms contagion she doesn’t include her personal experience but follows the science and looks at how it’s not only possible to forget traumatic memories but that our species is genetically predetermined to do so for survival. It’s an incredible book and her life’s work is amazing to read about also.

Emotional abuse needs considered as emotional abuse and the best interests of the children need consider as just that, not from the pov that both parents should have ‘rights’ to access when only parental responsibility should be looked at. PA as a concept fucks with perception of rights verses responsibility, it’s a smoke screen and shouldn’t be given more power to have wider scope to further do this.