Trans rights don't effect women's rights.

@ASugar

Trans rights don't effect women's rights

I can confirm that they do not effect one another

Stop saying 'effect' when you mean 'affect'!

Firstly, nothing has proven that transgender women have the same crime rate as biological, cis men.

Firstly absence of evidence isnt evidence of absence.

Secondly there does seem to be at least some evidence that trans prisoners are not exactly offending in the same way as women. (or indeed arguably exactly like men either)

Thirdly as the current court case is demonstrating, there is a certain problem with integrity of data due to the GRC mess and privacy issues hiding the reality that would be really helpful to everyone.

Fourly, women in prison can't be raped, get pregnant or be otherwise sexually assaulted by prisoners with penises and bodies of male size and muscular strength if there are none in a women's prison. Just one assault is one assault too many.

If we had sight of transwomen on paper and we were allowed to document all of this accurately and properly with the data being published in the name of transparency, we should be able to find out the truth beyond much doubt.

However we have a whole system set up to obscure this information and a culture which wants to suppress this information. Why? If the data backs up your OP, great cracking proof we can all move on. However if the data blows a titanic sized hole in your argument then bye bye gender neutral is safe arguments. There is a massive vested interest here.

We should be exploring this to examine underlying issues, problems and potential deliberate and malicious exploitation of a system which is opaque and may be being deliberately used by male criminals (including some who are not trans) to commit offences. This way we can deal with the issues it raises in a constructive way to protect all parties. That's how equality should work.

Blinding ourselves to reality does not stop reality.

Good that the thread is remaining up.

Basically, where there is no biological advantage to being male or female (eg equestrianism) the sport is already mixed sex.

It is a handy way of telling whether being born male confers an advantage. (Usually - women tend to be more flexible than men, which has an advantage in certain types of gymnastics.)

It does feel like there's anger that has translated into misplaced misogyny. There are plenty of people on MN who can help. There's a long running series of threads for people who grew up in toxic families.

I love malt loaf. They do it pre sliced now!

[quote ASugar]@BlackWaveComing Good thing she's no longer my mum anymore.[/quote]
Go away and learn how to make an adequate argument that doesn't waste women's time.

Your mother will always be your mother. In contact or not.

Prove to who, exactly?

“Prove to MumsNet” apparently.

I think I’ve found the flaw in the OP’s master plan

Sorry, well, that was more directed at the poster you were quoting rather than you!

[quote ASugar]@EnoughnowIthink I don't believe any rapist, sexual assault predator or murderer should be near others in prisons.[/quote]
Should they all be in single cells 24/7?

[quote ASugar]@BlackWaveComing Good thing she's no longer my mum anymore.[/quote]
Is that what you really want to talk about? There are other boards for support if you wanted to.

Plenty of threads on this subject if you care to look.

You could make this exact argument against a person of colour by saying that a person of colour once was violent to someone or once attacked someone. Trans people are a section of society and within that there will be trans people who are criminals, just like there would be if you drew from any other section of society. It will be an extremely small percentage and people get completely fixated on it. Due to their lack of understanding and fear, they then use it as a way to be exclusionary. This exact thing happened in the past with people of colour and gay people who were deemed to be violent and dangerous.

We make that argument against males. We live in a society which acknowledges that some males are violent and operates certain safeguards to protect women from that male-pattern violence. Transwomen are male.

I don't know about 'effect' but they definitely do 'affect' it. On a theoretical level for me it could be seen as the final and ultimate level in the video game of misogyny.

By saying that trans women are somehow less, you are basically doing the same thing. You are attempting to justify exclusion because you have an irrational fear of something that you do not understand

I’m not saying transwomen are “less” at all. But transwomen are born male, are they not, or there would be nothing to transition from, right? And in some places and for some reasons, it is important to acknowledge that transwomen and women have different needs.

Interesting that transmen, who are certainly included in the class of people that I think benefit from rights and protections that female bodied people need, don’t get a mention in your argument....

Few actually cared that much about self-ID (in the UK, most areas are self-ID already thanks to the EA2010)

No. The EA is quite clear about about single sex exemptions and the protected characteristic is gender reassignment not self identification. It's Stonewall you need to be thanking for their dedication to misrepresenting the law.

The attached screenshot from the 2nd March makes this clear.

[quote ASugar]@EnoughnowIthink I don't believe any rapist, sexual assault predator or murderer should be near others in prisons.[/quote]
That's not really how prisons work, though, is it?

If there is no one with a penis in a women's prison, no women will be raped. If there are people with penises, women are at risk of rape, as happened with Karen White.

Prove to who, exactly?

ASugar
@BlackWaveComing Good thing she's no longer my mum anymore.

Has she transitioned?

What about sport?
There’s a reason women and men have different categories.
I played against a trans woman in rugby and she destroyed the competition. She went from playing in the men’s team one week, and then joining the very amateur women’s team the next
Physiological advantages she was born with meant it just wasn’t a fair playing field.
As a woman do I just need to shut up?