Mumsnet Says They Are Trans Friendly; What do you think?

I’m on mn because I’m a mum. I do not know what cis is, nor do I need to know, am not interested.

I recommend doing some research on nonbinary identities

And I recommend doing some research on the history of feminism and women's global oppression.

I think it's quite the assumption to say that I don't identify with womanhood. Nonbinary /=/ agender. To be incredibly simplistic about it, I find myself to be woman, man, and other. I recommend doing some research on nonbinary identities before making assumptions about someone's connections to gender(s).

In fairness, OP, you were asked by several posters early on what you meant by 'nonbinary trans'. You didn't reply.

There are dozens of other great questions and comments from posters on this thread...all unanswered. I fear you are, indeed, yet another poster here not to debate but to scold us for non-compliance.

As others have said, Intersectional Feminism was originally exploring how other factors such as being black, disabled or poor also impacted on the oppression of women. It now seems to be about needing to include male people. Similarly radical feminism is based in the belief that women are oppressed by our biology and seeks to address the origins of that (with radical relating to the word root rather than meaning extreme, again hijacked as a way of making gender critical feminists appear marginal).
Trans exclusionary, from my experience at least, is again used in a frog story fashion (to put it mildly) and what many people who use the term mean is transwomen are excluded because, for some reason, transmen always seem to be forgotten. This conveniently ignores the fact that one of the biggest areas gender critical feminism is concerned about is why so many girls and young women (aka females) are identifying as trans and non-binary and seeking to understand s the dissonance they feel with the female sex in the hope of improving the society that creates these situations. Which, to me at least, seems quite the opposite of being trans exclusionary.

given that I believe that trans women are women, it's very important for trans women to be included in that intersectionality

That’s a very misogynistic belief though, IMO, which is why I’m proud I don’t share it. I see people who espouse this view as inherently misogynistic and therefore the opposite of feminists.

And it’s logically indefensible. What does the word “woman” mean, OP? What is the precise, accurate, objectively true, non-circular definition of the word “woman” according to which TWAW?

Why should the movement for the liberation of (biologically) female people from oppression by (biologically) male people suddenly start to include and even centre some of those biologically male people? It’s absurd. And it’s just another facet of that oppression of female people by male people.

All I see you doing is promoting the same old patriarchal hierarchy of males first, females last. The axis of oppression is and always has been sex, not “gender identity”, and your ideology embeds that yet further. It’s hateful.

OP You'll probably find quite a lot of your questions answered in Mumsnet's own guidelines which you can find here: www.mumsnet.com/info/trans-rights-moderation-policy

[quote PearlescentIridescent]@Winesalot and yet peoplw frequently do do those things or say something along the lines of "If I say what I really think I will be banned".[/quote]
Yes. Because there are certain subjects and words that cannot be used even when they are completely relevant to the topic. If you read widely on this board you would know what topics these would be.

You would also know that there are trans people who are happy to discuss some of those topics (even as they relate to themselves) and agree. However, we are still not allowed to discuss them or name them here.

Men / women enjoying interests, behaviours, appearance, names stereotypically seen in the opposite sex = great.

Men / women doing this and truly believing they are the opposite sex because of it = if it's not hurting anyone else and genuinely improving their life and mental health, great.

Men / women doing this, truly believing they are the opposite sex because of it and insisting I have to believe it too and use all their terms to define myself = as unacceptable as any other personal belief being forced upon someone else. I have no phobia or hatred for people believing what they like, Christians, Jews, flat earthers but I'm not about to say their beliefs are real to me and humbly identify myself in a day to day context as sinner, shiksa, round earther or cis.

@Nightinghawk how can you be nonbinary and trans? Please explain what it was you transitioned from and to? How does that work if you don’t have a gender?

I define womanhood as sex based. I'm guessing you define womanhood as sitting somewhere on a genderqueer spectrum that anybody can identify with regardless of their sex.

I fail to see how this progresses feminism or would help women and girls in the global south, for example, who are incredibly oppressed on the basis of their sex.

Nonbinary /=/ agender. To be incredibly simplistic about it, I find myself to be woman, man, and other. I recommend doing some research on nonbinary identities before making assumptions about someone's connections to gender(s).

"Non-binary (also spelled nonbinary) or genderqueer is a spectrum of gender identities that are not exclusively masculine or feminine‍—identities that are outside the gender binary."
(Wikipedia)

That seems similar to most definitions I have seen? As far as I can see pretty much everyone on the planet is non-binary - am I wrong?

I find myself to be woman, man, and other
Can you tell us more about this?

Hey OP, just picking up what you said here: "I think feminism has to be intersectional in order to be true to it's end goal of equality and equity, and given that I believe that trans women are women, it's very important for trans women to be included in that intersectionality."

Intersectionality, as I understand it (but it's been a while since I read Crenshaw) is that black women are never oppressed separately as black people and as women, but intersectionally as 'black women'. Their blackness intersects with their womanhood to create a unique form of oppression. Can you explain what characteristics are intersecting in the case of trans women in order to create a unique form of oppression? Also, intersectionality is simply a tool for analysing oppression. It isn't a kind of feminism in its own right.

The problem is , as I see it, I'm not a postmodernist feminist. I'm far more aligned theoretically with old school radical feminism. This means that I simply can't agree that trans women are part of the category 'woman'. This doesn't mean they lack human rights, or deserve oppression.My theory of gender is simply different from yours, and I don't see why it necessarily follows from that that I must be a bigot, or that I want the worst for trans people.

This one still makes me chuckle

sexual technics

Does anyone remember this thread?! It was hilarious

I missed that one it looks great, have bookmarked.

I don't actually think this sub is very good at debate.

It's not a "sub". This isn't Reddit. It operates in a different way. And if you think TRAs don't use anecdotes and aren't emotive in their arguments, you aren't looking very far. This is the feminism and women's rights board. It rightly centres women and girls. Trans issues are only relevant to this board insofar as they impact women and girls. That's why we discuss them here.

I think feminism has to be intersectional in order to be true to it's end goal of equality and equity, and given that I believe that trans women are women, it's very important for trans women to be included in that intersectionality.

To be truly intersectional, it's necessary to recognise female sex as an axis of oppression, as it has been for millennia. Yet trans activists often refuse to do this?

If you identify as non-binary, may I respectfully ask what your interest in feminism is, and why you believe you know what's best to progress it? Thank you.

This is a really good question.

For reference: I am nonbinary trans and use xe/xem pronouns.

Can you possibly explain what that means, and why you use those pronouns?