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Original poster

Mumsnet Says They Are Trans Friendly; What do you think?

790 replies

Nightinghawk · 03/03/2021 15:22

I’m coming over from Twitter since @/MumsnetTowers has encouraged people to join, promising that they would not ban people for using the word “cis” and also that they think “Campaigning against trans people’s existing human rights and legal protections is transphobic” is “an interesting question and a debate [they’d] welcome seeing on the boards.” When asked if they believe that trans women are women, trans men are men, and nonbinary people are nonbinary, they responded with “We believe adults have a right to say what they think about matters of active public debate.” However, they do say they do not tolerate hate speech, malicious content, sweeping negative generalizations, derogatory or aggressive content on their site.

Given the conflicting messages I’ve seen from them in the past, and the fact that they to this day think campaigns against trans people’s rights could in any way not be transphobic and their hesitance to affirm trans people’s autonomy in our self-description and our gender(s), I’m hesitant to believe that Mumsnet the site is actually trans friendly. I mean this as no disrespect to the mod team or others in position of authority; it is merely my opinion (and lived experiences) that any online forum that doesn’t immediately consider campaigns against trans people’s rights as transphobic tend to have (accidentally or otherwise) cultivated a transphobic customer base on their forums. I say this as a trans person who has been leveled all kinds of harassment in a variety of online forums, where those which had not condemned transphobia had immensely more transphobia in quantity and in vitriol.

All this is to say, I’d like to hear your (Mumsnet’s users’) opinions on the matter. Is Mumsnet really a trans friendly space? Do you believe that advocating against trans people’s existing rights is transphobic or anti-trans? Do you think these existing rights for trans people are “interesting” enough for “debate”? Do you think the term cis should be censored? Am I safe asking for/providing advice here as a trans person? Why? Why not?

For reference: I am nonbinary trans and use xe/xem pronouns. I understand they can be difficult to use or to remember to be used for some people. If you don’t want to use my pronouns, then please use my username: Nightinghawk, or NH as shorthand.

OP posts:
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Original poster
Nightinghawk · 03/03/2021 20:03

@elgreco

Spoons?
It's part of what's called Spoon Theory in the disability community that processes the amount of energy certain tasks take into a certain number of "spoons," where you start with a certain number of spoons in a day to distribute to the tasks you are going through for the day.

You can read more about it here: butyoudontlooksick.com/articles/written-by-christine/the-spoon-theory/

And if you type in "disability spoon theory" into google images, some graphics will come up that further help to put together the concept.

OP posts:
JaneJeffer · 03/03/2021 20:03

a lot of people on this forum are making the assumption that nonbinary = agender or nonbinary = third gender, both of which are not true
What is the truth?

OvaHere · 03/03/2021 20:02

I'm not making any assumptions OP. I just don't believe in any of it in the same way I don't believe in religion. Although for clarity I accept that people who do believe in religion exist and it is their right to believe in it.

To be honest I just view all this stuff as a secular religion half the time.
It's what your posts remind me of, though of course you are also free to believe what you like.

SylvanianFrenemies · 03/03/2021 20:01

Me too @HermitsLife. Quite right @Impatiens

HermitsLife · 03/03/2021 19:59

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MrsBrunch · 03/03/2021 19:59

I'm just waiting to back from OP as to how gender is binary because I haven't heard that from any other transperson.

ChancesWhatChances · 03/03/2021 19:55

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Original poster
Nightinghawk · 03/03/2021 19:52

@ThinkIveFoundYourMarbles

I think it's quite the assumption to say that I don't identify with womanhood. Nonbinary /=/ agender. To be incredibly simplistic about it, I find myself to be woman, man, and other. I recommend doing some research on nonbinary identities before making assumptions about someone's connections to gender(s).

In fairness, OP, you were asked by several posters early on what you meant by 'nonbinary trans'. You didn't reply.

There are dozens of other great questions and comments from posters on this thread...all unanswered. I fear you are, indeed, yet another poster here not to debate but to scold us for non-compliance.

I'm sorry that I can't respond to every 100+ comment on this thread. I have a busy work schedule particularly with university today and figured I'd start a response to all those comments asking about what nonbinary trans is with that message. It's an honest critique of someone who made an assumption about me without fully understanding nonbinary identities.

I will admit that I'm much more used to talking about gender and nonbinary genders with trans and nonbinary people, so perhaps some of the annoyance that came through in my response comes from that. It does appear that quite a lot of people on this forum are making the assumption that nonbinary = agender or nonbinary = third gender, both of which are not true, as I have explained in a previous response to other posts, so I'll be taking that into account going forward.

OP posts:
Impatiens · 03/03/2021 19:50

'desperate' is the word @AuntieMatter

AuntieMatter · 03/03/2021 19:48

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CorvusPurpureus · 03/03/2021 19:44

Ah, I see your problem OP!

You are tying yourself in knots over gender. Most of us here are discussing issues pertaining to our sex as women.

Fundamental category error, mate Smile.

I hope you find more spoons, though. Useful things, & not just for stirring, although I'm a bit dubious about your use of that particular metaphor in this context.

My understanding is that it was coined by, & for, people with various chronic conditions which cause persistent & debilitating fatigue.

If that's you, I apologise, but I have a couple of mates who are really quite fucked off about its appropriation to mean 'I CBA/don't have time for this' by people who do not have such conditions.

This might be something you'd like to be mindful of, as a person with a keen interest in how other people use language.

MrsBrunch · 03/03/2021 19:28

"outside the gender binary"

But gender isn't binary. Gender is a spectrum.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/03/2021 19:26

This came about only because of the constant repetition of "trans women are women". I think it only reasonable that we can counter your assertion with one of our own.

Quite.

OvaHere · 03/03/2021 19:25

@OvaHere

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I'll try again Mumsnet because I don't see why only one of us is deleted for making the similar assertions.

Most often I've seen with the constant repetition of "adult human female."

This came about only because of the constant repetition of "trans women are women". I think it only reasonable that we can counter your assertion with one of our own.

Original poster
Nightinghawk · 03/03/2021 19:21

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

Nonbinary /=/ agender. To be incredibly simplistic about it, I find myself to be woman, man, and other. I recommend doing some research on nonbinary identities before making assumptions about someone's connections to gender(s).

"Non-binary (also spelled nonbinary) or genderqueer is a spectrum of gender identities that are not exclusively masculine or feminine‍—identities that are outside the gender binary."
(Wikipedia)

That seems similar to most definitions I have seen? As far as I can see pretty much everyone on the planet is non-binary - am I wrong?

It most likely depends on your view of gender/gender theory, but I primarily stray closer to allowing people to self-identify with what labels they are comfortable with. Some people do find themselves to very, very much within a binary idea of gender, while others are much more fluid, dynamic, or straddling lines.

Just as a general note: note that nonbinary denotes "not exclusively" and "outside the gender binary." This leaves room for something like the metaphor of having one foot in one room and another foot in a different room, or spilling out of one box into another or multiple other boxes.

OP posts:
hedgehogger1 · 03/03/2021 19:20

@AllAboutHallowsEve

Well I've never seen a mumsnetter threaten to beat, punch, kill or rape a transperson posting on this site.

But I've seen plenty of TRAs threaten to beat, punch, kill and rape women on Twitter for being GC.

So my question for you OP is this: why are you focusing your attention on women, mainly mums, who want to protect the right for girls and women to have single sex spaces, instead of focusing your attention on stopping TRAs from threatening to kill and rape us for not sharing their ideology?

This
elgreco · 03/03/2021 19:18

Spoons?

Original poster
Nightinghawk · 03/03/2021 19:14

@JaneJeffer

I find myself to be woman, man, and other Can you tell us more about this?
I don't necessarily have the spoons at the moment to go into more detail about this, but I might discuss it more at a later date.
OP posts:
OvaHere · 03/03/2021 19:09

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OvaHere · 03/03/2021 19:06

@TalkingtoLangClegintheDark

given that I believe that trans women are women, it's very important for trans women to be included in that intersectionality

That’s a very misogynistic belief though, IMO, which is why I’m proud I don’t share it. I see people who espouse this view as inherently misogynistic and therefore the opposite of feminists.

And it’s logically indefensible. What does the word “woman” mean, OP? What is the precise, accurate, objectively true, non-circular definition of the word “woman” according to which TWAW?

Why should the movement for the liberation of (biologically) female people from oppression by (biologically) male people suddenly start to include and even centre some of those biologically male people? It’s absurd. And it’s just another facet of that oppression of female people by male people.

All I see you doing is promoting the same old patriarchal hierarchy of males first, females last. The axis of oppression is and always has been sex, not “gender identity”, and your ideology embeds that yet further. It’s hateful.

Yes. All of this.
CCCollins · 03/03/2021 19:06

Yes. I think they have decent moderation, and are good at allowing freedom of speech that doesn't run into hate speech.

Original poster
Nightinghawk · 03/03/2021 19:06

@PearlescentIridescent

So you believe that there is only your definition of feminism and anyone who views it differently shouldnt speak and shouldnt debate why there are potential problems with the concept of intersectionality?

To play devil's advocate though that's exactly what this forum does. If you are not what you guys call gender critical and what I call trans exclusive (without the radical bit) then there is absolutely no room for you here.

This is exactly what I was thinking when I read that. Nowhere in what I said insinuated that I believe my own definition/view of feminism is the only one around. The beautiful thing about words is that there are many definitions to them. Different people hold onto different definitions, which often causes a variety of strife in many kinds of conversation. Recognizing that there are many definitions that can exist in tandem, fluidly, and that they don't necessarily cancel each other out, has been incredibly imporatant in informing my understanding of gender, feminism, and the variety of experiences which shape the world around us.

Most of my interactions with GCs has been along the lines of "my definition is different, so clearly you are wrong." Most often I've seen with the constant repetition of "adult human female."

OP posts:
jules0607 · 03/03/2021 19:05

Is this you trying to mess with the Malt Loaf? Mums buy it xx

AnotherEmma · 03/03/2021 19:04

"Why should the movement for the liberation of (biologically) female people from oppression by (biologically) male people suddenly start to include and even centre some of those biologically male people? It’s absurd. And it’s just another facet of that oppression of female people by male people.

All I see you doing is promoting the same old patriarchal hierarchy of males first, females last. The axis of oppression is and always has been sex, not “gender identity”, and your ideology embeds that yet further."

I completely agree with all this, you have brilliantly articulated how I feel, and I would have struggled to put it into words half as well as you did.

MrsKeats · 03/03/2021 19:03

Can we not say twaddle now?