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Original poster

Mumsnet Says They Are Trans Friendly; What do you think?

790 replies

Nightinghawk · 03/03/2021 15:22

I’m coming over from Twitter since @/MumsnetTowers has encouraged people to join, promising that they would not ban people for using the word “cis” and also that they think “Campaigning against trans people’s existing human rights and legal protections is transphobic” is “an interesting question and a debate [they’d] welcome seeing on the boards.” When asked if they believe that trans women are women, trans men are men, and nonbinary people are nonbinary, they responded with “We believe adults have a right to say what they think about matters of active public debate.” However, they do say they do not tolerate hate speech, malicious content, sweeping negative generalizations, derogatory or aggressive content on their site.

Given the conflicting messages I’ve seen from them in the past, and the fact that they to this day think campaigns against trans people’s rights could in any way not be transphobic and their hesitance to affirm trans people’s autonomy in our self-description and our gender(s), I’m hesitant to believe that Mumsnet the site is actually trans friendly. I mean this as no disrespect to the mod team or others in position of authority; it is merely my opinion (and lived experiences) that any online forum that doesn’t immediately consider campaigns against trans people’s rights as transphobic tend to have (accidentally or otherwise) cultivated a transphobic customer base on their forums. I say this as a trans person who has been leveled all kinds of harassment in a variety of online forums, where those which had not condemned transphobia had immensely more transphobia in quantity and in vitriol.

All this is to say, I’d like to hear your (Mumsnet’s users’) opinions on the matter. Is Mumsnet really a trans friendly space? Do you believe that advocating against trans people’s existing rights is transphobic or anti-trans? Do you think these existing rights for trans people are “interesting” enough for “debate”? Do you think the term cis should be censored? Am I safe asking for/providing advice here as a trans person? Why? Why not?

For reference: I am nonbinary trans and use xe/xem pronouns. I understand they can be difficult to use or to remember to be used for some people. If you don’t want to use my pronouns, then please use my username: Nightinghawk, or NH as shorthand.

OP posts:
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SirVixofVixHall · 03/03/2021 21:25

This reply has been deleted

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Impatiens · 03/03/2021 21:22

You are also way off the mark in what you say about this board. It has been stated over and over again that we are worried about the safeguarding of vulnerable people, especially children, about fairness for women and about male violence and the fact that gender self-ID is open to abuse. These are not trivial concerns.

That's right. And that's why MN isn't the same as, for instance, Twitter
where these crucial concerns are deemed 'transphobic'.

SirVixofVixHall · 03/03/2021 21:20

@Whatsnewpussyhat

What's with all these posts

“Campaigning against trans people’s existing human rights and legal protections is transphobic”

What rights and legal protections do trans people in the UK have that you think will be removed?

They already have the same human rights as everyone else.

Yet they demand the complete removal of all female sex based protections in law.

This.
Conniethesensible · 03/03/2021 21:16

Ultimately I think it will be its demise.

MrsComte · 03/03/2021 21:13

@AuntieMatter

I think if you engage in good faith discussions you will be extended that courtesy back.

Feminism is for females, so the focus in this section is concerns of female sexed people of any or no gender. Just like a paper crafts section wouldn't focus on crochet, or a breastfeeding section on gravy recipes. Unfortunately people sometimes misinterpret women talking about their sex specific needs and concerns as being transphobic which can lead to antagonism.

I hope you enjoy your visit to mumsnet.

Excellent post.
PutItInNeutral · 03/03/2021 21:08

@Nightinghawk if you’re new here, just coming over from Twitter, how did you know to come straight to the feminist board?

midgedude · 03/03/2021 21:07

Well given the definition of transphobia is not believing TWAW then MN would be , by that definition only , transphobic. Funny that a site full of women don't think people born male are women . Right surprise.

Actually I think you will also find that when push came to shove ( choosing sexual partners for example ) most men would not believe that TWAW either

TabbyPlain · 03/03/2021 21:06

Jack Appleby wrote, far better than I could -
"I don't get how so many people have obviously not asked themselves this question...
What's more likely: That a load of life-long left-leaning LGBT-supporting women have inexplicably and uncharacteristically all suddenly become bigots or that one might be missing something here?"

CorvusPurpureus · 03/03/2021 21:00

I'm glad you clarified about the 'spoons', OP. Sorry you feel that you aren't able to tackle responses to your thread, but I'm sure you are reading them thoughtfully.

The other point I raised was that you're very, very invested in gender.

Posters on this board are mostly - definitely not always - concerned with sex. Things like the impact being of the female sex has on our lives.

Gender's a wholly different thing, right?

Should women (female sex) discussing things pertaining to our sex need to consider 'gender'? I'd say yes, because it's a problem & frankly a huge pain in the arse that gets in the way of feminism.

You'd probably say that it's very important to your world view.

Can we agree to disagree, or would that make you upset/angry?

TabbyPlain · 03/03/2021 20:59

Please don't CIS me either

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 03/03/2021 20:50

@TheLovleyChebbyMcGee

I think the vast majority of mumsnet is transphobic. They resist using peoples preferred pronouns, deadname people, and assume that trans people want access to single sex spaces to rape women
You do understand that there is a lot more to Mumsnet than just the FWR boards? Are they transphobic over on Education, The Doghouse, Bereavement, Telly Addicts, Food/Recipes?

You are also way off the mark in what you say about this board. It has been stated over and over again that we are worried about the safeguarding of vulnerable people, especially children, about fairness for women and about male violence and the fact that gender self-ID is open to abuse. These are not trivial concerns.

stuckinatrap · 03/03/2021 20:45

But what we don't do is threaten, doxx or harass.

We do pass around a lot of gin, support women going through shit times in life, laugh an awful lot and swear like sailors.

stuckinatrap · 03/03/2021 20:43

Welcome to Mumsnet.

Mumsnet is generally a site that likes a big old debate. There are a lot of frighteningly intelligent women on here, so if you come here and give an opinion on The Kennel section about the best way to train a puppy, you are likely to be challenged by a knowledgeable dog owner. If you go on Am I Being Unreasonable about your neighbour's parking skills, you are likely to be challenged by someone telling you you are wrong and to get a grip.
We like a debate here and we treat everyone the same in that fashion. We often disagree on all things from fashion to US politics. Some people will stand in your corner and others will ask blunt and searching questions. As long as you can back up your position and can accept that sometimes not everyone will agree, you are golden.

In short, we all challenge each other equally regardless of background, religion, gender identity or pet preference. We are entirely non-discriminatory in that way.

If you can't handle someone saying 'I disagree' then no, probably Mumsnet is not for you.

MrsBrunch · 03/03/2021 20:39

Get some rest OP. There's always someone around to talk with here whenever you feel up to it.

ThinkIveFoundYourMarbles · 03/03/2021 20:35

*I'm sorry that I can't respond to every 100+ comment on this thread. I have a busy work schedule particularly with university today and figured I'd start a response to all those comments asking about what nonbinary trans is with that message. It's an honest critique of someone who made an assumption about me without fully understanding nonbinary identities.

I will admit that I'm much more used to talking about gender and nonbinary genders with trans and nonbinary people, so perhaps some of the annoyance that came through in my response comes from that. It does appear that quite a lot of people on this forum are making the assumption that nonbinary = agender or nonbinary = third gender, both of which are not true, as I have explained in a previous response to other posts, so I'll be taking that into account going forward.*

OK, fair enough. And you don't have to reply to every single post. Pick one of the most frequent comments/questions and start with that. Sorry to hear you're struggling tonight. Get some rest and come back and talk with us.

AdHominemNonSequitur · 03/03/2021 20:23

Oh sorry, just saw it had already been explained

AdHominemNonSequitur · 03/03/2021 20:22

@elgreco

Spoons?
Spoons is a analogy used to describe a concept used in chronic pain management and fibromyalgia/ chronic fatigue diagnoses, which is a way of looking at energy levels as a stash of spoons which when used up, are used up. Energy pacing. Xe doesn't have the energy to answer the question at the moment.
Original poster
Nightinghawk · 03/03/2021 20:22

@CorvusPurpureus

Ah, I see your problem OP!

You are tying yourself in knots over gender. Most of us here are discussing issues pertaining to our sex as women.

Fundamental category error, mate Smile.

I hope you find more spoons, though. Useful things, & not just for stirring, although I'm a bit dubious about your use of that particular metaphor in this context.

My understanding is that it was coined by, & for, people with various chronic conditions which cause persistent & debilitating fatigue.

If that's you, I apologise, but I have a couple of mates who are really quite fucked off about its appropriation to mean 'I CBA/don't have time for this' by people who do not have such conditions.

This might be something you'd like to be mindful of, as a person with a keen interest in how other people use language.

I do have a chronic condition, so thank you for the apology.

This is a matter that many disabled people have talked on, but from my understanding from within the community is that this kind of gatekeeping tends to hurt disabled people more than help us. If someone is using spoons theory, there's likely a reason for it, and should be afforded space to explore that reason on their own time. It's difficult, especially through online space, to see or understand how disabled someone is. (This isn't to say that everyone agrees with this, but it is where I stand and what I have mostly seen in online disabled spaces)

OP posts:
Schoolchoicesucks · 03/03/2021 20:17

Hi OP.

There are many trans friendly posters on Mumsnet. I have seen mods deleting transphopic comments, so don't think the site is not trans friendly.

The feminist board has lots of gender critical threads. I've not seen many posters arguing to remove existing trans rights. Either they aren't there or the mods get in first and remove them. There are many posters who are concerned about the removal of protections for women, either through self id or through placing the extension of rights for trans women above existing rights for vulnerable women - rape victims, domestic abuse victims, fgm survivors, autistic minors. There is concern about removing the safe spaces for women to discuss matters that only affect biological women means those hard won rights will be lost, that there will be no progress for things like research into endometriosis if women can't talk about it.

On most other boards, posters won't care less whether you are a woman, transwoman, non-binary, man (non-exhaustive list!) but if you have a good story about your mother-in-law or a friend is being a cheeky fucker you will fit in happily.

JaneJeffer · 03/03/2021 20:17

I don't necessarily have the spoons at the moment to go into more detail about this, but I might discuss it more at a later date.
Ok I'm interested to know about it when you are able.

GCAcademic · 03/03/2021 20:16

I am making the assumption that this is a belief system like any other, because this strongly appears to be the case. Feel free to believe it. I support your right to religious freedom.

Yes, absolutely. Believe whatever you like. Just don't expect me to believe that you are "man, woman and other". I'm happy to believe that you believe that, though.

WaverleyOwl · 03/03/2021 20:16

For god's sake. It's like arguing with a mirror.

People are not oppressed because of how they self-identify in their own minds. They are oppressed because of how others see them.

Women are oppressed due to their sex. We have rights to combat this.

Trans people are oppressed due to their presentation (if it is contrary to their sex). They have rights to combat this.

Feminism is for biological women ONLY because we are oppressed due to our reproductive capacity. Something that trans women don't face.

Intersectional does not mean that we have to include every man and his dog in feminism. It introduced the idea of including less represented women in feminism, like WOC. Not men that feel like women.

Fridget · 03/03/2021 20:08

Hi @Nightinghawk, just checking if you agree that natal women are oppressed because of their sex?

Even if you also think they are oppressed because of their gender, do you accept sex is at the root of a lot of the oppression women suffer?

MrsBrunch · 03/03/2021 20:08

Do you have a disability OP? If not, why are you using that phrase to refer to yourself?

AngelaMerkelEyeRoll · 03/03/2021 20:08

It does appear that quite a lot of people on this forum are making the assumption that nonbinary = agender or nonbinary = third gender

I am making the assumption that this is a belief system like any other, because this strongly appears to be the case. Feel free to believe it. I support your right to religious freedom.