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Mumsnet Says They Are Trans Friendly; What do you think?

790 replies

Nightinghawk · 03/03/2021 15:22

I’m coming over from Twitter since @/MumsnetTowers has encouraged people to join, promising that they would not ban people for using the word “cis” and also that they think “Campaigning against trans people’s existing human rights and legal protections is transphobic” is “an interesting question and a debate [they’d] welcome seeing on the boards.” When asked if they believe that trans women are women, trans men are men, and nonbinary people are nonbinary, they responded with “We believe adults have a right to say what they think about matters of active public debate.” However, they do say they do not tolerate hate speech, malicious content, sweeping negative generalizations, derogatory or aggressive content on their site.

Given the conflicting messages I’ve seen from them in the past, and the fact that they to this day think campaigns against trans people’s rights could in any way not be transphobic and their hesitance to affirm trans people’s autonomy in our self-description and our gender(s), I’m hesitant to believe that Mumsnet the site is actually trans friendly. I mean this as no disrespect to the mod team or others in position of authority; it is merely my opinion (and lived experiences) that any online forum that doesn’t immediately consider campaigns against trans people’s rights as transphobic tend to have (accidentally or otherwise) cultivated a transphobic customer base on their forums. I say this as a trans person who has been leveled all kinds of harassment in a variety of online forums, where those which had not condemned transphobia had immensely more transphobia in quantity and in vitriol.

All this is to say, I’d like to hear your (Mumsnet’s users’) opinions on the matter. Is Mumsnet really a trans friendly space? Do you believe that advocating against trans people’s existing rights is transphobic or anti-trans? Do you think these existing rights for trans people are “interesting” enough for “debate”? Do you think the term cis should be censored? Am I safe asking for/providing advice here as a trans person? Why? Why not?

For reference: I am nonbinary trans and use xe/xem pronouns. I understand they can be difficult to use or to remember to be used for some people. If you don’t want to use my pronouns, then please use my username: Nightinghawk, or NH as shorthand.

OP posts:
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NewarkShark · 04/03/2021 14:44

That’s awful @Nightinghawk but in England and Wales trans people are protected against that kind of discrimination by our Equality Act.

Nightinghawk · 04/03/2021 14:39

@LouHotel

What existing rights are being debated? Seriously question because the equality act has been in place since 2005.
The question of existing rights being debated as presented above and in Twitter was a hypothetical questions, but I suppose the question should be answered more fully and more seriously.

I probably should have mentioned this before as well, but I'm based in the US, so there may be some discrepancies in the discussion as a result of that.

In the US, it is legal in most or many states to forcibly evict, refuse healthcare (emergency medical, etc), fire from employment, refuse housing to anyone who is LGBTQIA+. There's also rampant discrimination on matters of credit, public spaces, public services, federal programs. This tends to happen more often with trans people, particularly with regards to healthcare, and there are plenty of articles where trans people have been refused care by medical professionals for instances all the way from car accidents (see Tyra Hunter) to cancer treatment (Jay Kallio). There's dozens of reports from trans people of being denied for surgeries, appointments being cancelled once doctors learn they are trans, and, if they are offered services, often they are delayed, improperly diagnosed, or otherwise experience medical malpractice.

In some states and local municipalities, there are laws or restrictions against teaching LGBTQIA+ history, including and with particular emphasis on trans history. People are generally gagged from expressing themselves in gender, sex, and sexuality within schools, sometimes with punishments of being fired (for teachers and staff) or suspension and in-school punishments (for students).

A lot of these situations revolve around "religious freedom exemptions," pushed by the far right, which are currently being touted as the main opposition against the US's Equality Act which would add gender and sexual identity as protected categories along with race, ethnicity, sex, etc, and thusly provide equal protections to the entirety of the LGBTQIA+ community for all of the above. As it stands, Title IX also covers sex based discrimination, which the courts have determined to also cover gender based discrimination since discrimination of trans people always involves consideration of their sex as well as their gender identity; for similar reasons, Title IX has been used to protect gender non-conformity, sexual identity, and other sex related discriminations. However, there has been recent debate on this as well, debate which will not only hurt trans people if followed through, but the entirety of the LGBTQIA+ community.

It should also be noted on the basis of work place discrimination and firing, that many states in the US are "right to work" states, meaning that employers do not have to provide reason for firing a person, making it all the more difficult for us to fight this discrimination in a court of law.

All of this is considered as "debate" because there are some laws that provide protections or are interpreted as providing protections, but interpretation really only works when or if the court (or people, more generally speaking) in question has interpreted said laws as protecting these minorities. Generally, these protections are unevenly distributed as well.

Tl;dr -- Rights to housing, employment, freedom from discrimination, equal and equitable healthcare access, freedom of speech, freedom of expression, and more are being debated. These are covered (in theory) through interpretation of existing laws, but can still be subverted by the insertion of other laws or guidances which limit interpretation in one way or another.

OP posts:
MrGHardy · 04/03/2021 13:57

They are. They don't tolerate any hate or abuse.

However, if you think that in order to be labelled "trans friendly" one must unequivocally and ubiquitously do everything the trans lobby demands, then no, they aren't.

womanity · 04/03/2021 13:55

Interesting pothole
Sex: Female
Gender: Feminist

Izzy24 · 04/03/2021 13:55

I am feminist.

Which is why I am happy to describe pregnant people as exactly that if they wish me to. And I am happy to use the term chest feeding if that is what they wish.

I am not happy to describe myself in terms other people wish me to use. So I am a woman.

The End

PotholeParadies · 04/03/2021 13:43

I find it very difficult to articulate my personal relationship to gender and my secondary sexual characteristics at the same level as other posters, but according to various modern definitions of trans, I am... trans.

I think calling myself trans would be appropriation so I don't. I prefer to personally reject the whole framework that there is a wrong way to be a female human and to say, "no these expectations of females are sexist and unfair". Hence
... feminism. I don't think measuring myself against the standards for women, finding myself wanting and giving myself an alternative label based on that would be good for my self-image.

I am an adult female human. The name for the female.of our species in the Anglosphere is woman. Anything I do is something women do, because I'm doing it. Playing football, knitting, enjoying building flatpack furniture, burning through the bottom of the saucepan or being unable to do two things at once? All my own traits, therefore they are traits women have, not evidence that I am some other type of human.

But if anyone should persist in dividing the world into cis and trans, then I'm trans and I get to tell self-identified "cisgender women" to stop, right?

RedToothBrush · 04/03/2021 13:17

Or would that be bad faith?

( hmmm )

RedToothBrush · 04/03/2021 13:15

@ErrolTheDragon

I just got told that if I don't have a gender identity, that means I'm transgender.Grin
Love this logic.

Can we all be gender critical, as this magically means we become trans thus meaning all gender critical discussions and discussion groups are automatically above all the ludicrous and dramatic accusations of 'hate'? Does this mean we can all join trans groups and represent trans interests and shout about how gender criticals are trans and be accepted without exception and no debate because we are who we say we are?

'Boing' said Zebedee!

FuckingFabulous · 04/03/2021 13:07

Oh, the rage. 😡

Wbeezer · 04/03/2021 12:51

Can I just but in to say how grateful I am for threads like these, so many articulate posters making perfect sense. I just ventured onto reddit and got a permanent ban from the XXChromosome subreddit for saying the kind of statement often made on here. Made me appreciate Mumsnet.
Carry on... Goes back to stirring cauldron (making soup).

Winesalot · 04/03/2021 12:31

yes, Errol.

So does that elevate our needs in the priority list? Because if we do not agree with the gender being assigned to us by someone insisting on calling us c*s, we default to being 'trans'.

Imagine the effect of us all doing just that? And while still insisting that women and girls' rights be preserved for females.

Cokie3 · 04/03/2021 12:19

Ugh, typos.

*This is why

and

*but my foresisters

ErrolTheDragon · 04/03/2021 12:18

I just got told that if I don't have a gender identity, that means I'm transgender.Grin

Cokie3 · 04/03/2021 12:18

This, folks, is what we are fighting for. This is why we have to prevail. There is NO other choice. This is way, as exhausting this misogynist fight is, rest if we must, but we must NEVER give up. This is what HATRED OF WOMEN is about in 2021.

I don't know about any of you, by my foresisters didn't fight for my future in vein, and I won't let future generations of women down. We all in?

Mumsnet Says They Are Trans Friendly; What do you think?
Winesalot · 04/03/2021 12:16

Well, lots of us don't want to be "cis"women and get called that anyway.

In fact, I have just been told on another thread that it doesn't matter at all that we wish not to be called c*sgender. And that the poster will continue to do so.

Frogartist · 04/03/2021 12:13

@Mockolate

I will not call a man she or a woman he

OK, that's fair enough but for the poster who was saying "never seen any of that on here"
there you go then.

Well, lots of us don't want to be "cis"women and get called that anyway.
MishyJDI · 04/03/2021 12:11

@Hoppinggreen

I too am puzzled about being non binary AND Trans Still, you do you OP
Here you go. Trans is an umbrella term, with lots of sub categories of identities underneath. So indeed one can be trans and non binary! There are binary trans, and non binary trans.

Much to take on in these new fangled identities!

Mumsnet Says They Are Trans Friendly; What do you think?
Cokie3 · 04/03/2021 12:09

This was forwarded to a group I'm on. I don't follow this particular page, but this says everything; a woman's only Domestic Violence shelter has been vandalised and DEFUNDED in favour of a Transgender only shelter.

Now, OP, and fellow readers, pray tell how this is not evidence of the MRA/TRA war against women. Does the OP support this: www.facebook.com/deepgreenresistance/posts/3911643465561394?cft[0]=AZUB7o-bzOeVWT1uRnlfn-rUQENt01dLGsJlKQWfZeHMV2SIB8156ANSk4ZDotG1PkycCuvYUSDpbRe98rnql3iPu1-gxSM-QBNGMaejyORPekIzVQO4YaHZVvzG3VDWIGTqAQQXEJPeB7Btgs5JLqKY&tn=%2CO%2CP-R

TabbyPlain · 04/03/2021 12:06

I would love @Nightinghawk to read this article and to hear their response. It mostly represents how I and others I know have begun to feel. I hope this is an acceptable message.

uncommongroundmedia.com/how-i-became-a-trans-rights-activist-then-turned-gender-critical/

Cokie3 · 04/03/2021 12:06

This is a good point by GinUnicorn ; I haven’t been able to attend a smear test for years due to sexual assault. I am trying to get the courage up but I will need a woman and by woman I mean female. A transwoman no matter how lovely she is could trigger PTSD. My health is already at risk due to my fear of this even with a woman if this right couldn’t be guaranteed how is this justified for the thousands of rape victims?

I have brought up similar points to MRAs/TRAs on Facebook previously.

The answer, is that they really don't seem to care. They just don't care. We are 'collateral damage' to them in their ideological driven pursuit. I really see that it is a politically and ideologically driven agenda with many of them, and they really don't give a damn how it affects women. That's the bottom line. I saw an excellent post by someone earlier this year or last year (will have to try to find it) that posed the question of the transwoman with intact male genitalia going to women's spas, where there are women who have been raped, victims of Domestic Violence, and even Hijabi Muslims who go there and remove Hijab and relax, who was suing these clinics for not waxing around his balls.

This was a women's clinic. And this self-IDing transwoman was forcing their male genitals into a woman's space, in defiance and not giving a shit who they upset.

These TRAs never have a straight clear answer on this. They then ignore it and go on to something else. Even on something as clear as day as this, they don't have the ability to debate in good faith or the intellectual or emotional honesty to acquiesce the very simple rationale that a woman, including vulnerable abuse survivors and Muslim women, have the RIGHT to their safe space.

Not ONCE, not ONCE has a TRA ever been able to address that. There is no veracity, there is no debating in good faith on their side. If they don't have a prepared counterpoint lined up, they are stuffed, and they just don't answer you. Their aim by and large is not to debate or contest ideas; it is to browbeat us into submission, and when a question gets too tough, they ignore it, don't answer it, deflect, or in some cases, just repeat on rote like a programmed person; 'transwomen are women, transwomen are women, transwomen are women'. They are not prepared to answer questions in good faith, certainly not if they don't have the prepared scripted answer. They flounder when they have no prepared scripted answer. Just for once, I'd like one of them to answer, who has the most right in a female only space: a rape and domestic violence supporter and a Hijabi Muslim (a protected racial/religious minority at that, so it must cause the 'woke' some major conniptions working around that one); OR a person with male genitalia who wants to walk around naked around these women and have their BALLS WAXED.

Which one has 'right of way', so to speak? It can't be both. You can only pick one.

StringyPotatoes · 04/03/2021 11:45

@LouHotel

What existing rights are being debated? Seriously question because the equality act has been in place since 2005.
Hi OP,

This question has come up a lot. Could you give your views on this please?

slightlyatsea · 04/03/2021 11:32

Why would you expect Mumsnet to be trans-friendly? You can expect that it will remove hate speech, but "friendly"? There are trans groups and sites which are centred around the needs of trans people; this site (especially the feminism chat) is centred around the needs of females. If you're a trans person who is male, or a trans person who is female but not feminist, you may well not find the boards "friendly". I don't expect an anglers' forum to be vegan friendly. I don't expect a Christian forum to be atheist friendly. Those just aren't my spaces, so I don't go there. We all need to respect the fact that people who aren't like us exist, and need their own spaces. We don't have the right to demand that every space accommodates us.

GinUnicorn · 04/03/2021 11:32

Hi Op.

I hope you are feeling better this morning.

I wanted to address your point about people here saying transwomen are not women.

I am afraid I would be one of them. I have nothing against transwomen and am friends with a few rather wonderful transwomen who are great people.

So why would I say transwomen are transwomen not women? A few reasons.

  1. If Transwomen are women it renders the word utterly meaningless. Woman is a term for adult human female. Every other animal has this word and it is a useful descriptor. If transwomen are to be counted as women how can we communicate specifically to females without the use of dehumanising terms such as uterus owners

I also feel the mantra transwomen are women is a distraction to stop society addressing the real transphobia. By chanting a mantra we fail to acknowledge the real challenges facing transwomen. Transwomen who don’t pass will be facing systematic discrimination. We can not tackle this by forcing them into a different demographic who are facing sex based discrimination. This reeks of passing the buck and does nothing to solve the problem of male violence. Attitudes towards homosexuality have changed vastly over the years (rightly so) and homophobia is viewed as offensive (again rightly so)

If we say Transwomen are women we remove any ability to fight transphobic because we aren’t identifying them as their own different but equally valid demographic. How can this help change attitudes? It just reinforces the view that transpeople need to be invisible.

Finally if we say transwomen are women then how can we address the clash of rights? I haven’t been able to attend a smear test for years due to sexual assault. I am trying to get the courage up but I will need a woman and by woman I mean female. A transwoman no matter how lovely she is could trigger PTSD. My health is already at risk due to my fear of this even with a woman if this right couldn’t be guaranteed how is this justified for the thousands of rape victims?

I do wish you well OP however you identify I just hope some kindness towards women isn’t considered bigotry.

AbsintheFriends · 04/03/2021 11:24

It was MN themselves who said "people are welcome to come and debate on the boards and "see for themselves", and that they welcomed discussion

Which has proved to be the case.

Pages of well-argued, intelligent discussion. Many myths busted and points of confusion explained. Lots of posters taking the time to set out how and why they hold the position they do. Thanks Mimmymum!

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 04/03/2021 11:21

I missed this earlier ...

convincing them that they would be accepting the devil's coin if a feminist ever purchased a maltloaf.

Excellent Grin

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