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Original poster

Mumsnet Says They Are Trans Friendly; What do you think?

790 replies

Nightinghawk · 03/03/2021 15:22

I’m coming over from Twitter since @/MumsnetTowers has encouraged people to join, promising that they would not ban people for using the word “cis” and also that they think “Campaigning against trans people’s existing human rights and legal protections is transphobic” is “an interesting question and a debate [they’d] welcome seeing on the boards.” When asked if they believe that trans women are women, trans men are men, and nonbinary people are nonbinary, they responded with “We believe adults have a right to say what they think about matters of active public debate.” However, they do say they do not tolerate hate speech, malicious content, sweeping negative generalizations, derogatory or aggressive content on their site.

Given the conflicting messages I’ve seen from them in the past, and the fact that they to this day think campaigns against trans people’s rights could in any way not be transphobic and their hesitance to affirm trans people’s autonomy in our self-description and our gender(s), I’m hesitant to believe that Mumsnet the site is actually trans friendly. I mean this as no disrespect to the mod team or others in position of authority; it is merely my opinion (and lived experiences) that any online forum that doesn’t immediately consider campaigns against trans people’s rights as transphobic tend to have (accidentally or otherwise) cultivated a transphobic customer base on their forums. I say this as a trans person who has been leveled all kinds of harassment in a variety of online forums, where those which had not condemned transphobia had immensely more transphobia in quantity and in vitriol.

All this is to say, I’d like to hear your (Mumsnet’s users’) opinions on the matter. Is Mumsnet really a trans friendly space? Do you believe that advocating against trans people’s existing rights is transphobic or anti-trans? Do you think these existing rights for trans people are “interesting” enough for “debate”? Do you think the term cis should be censored? Am I safe asking for/providing advice here as a trans person? Why? Why not?

For reference: I am nonbinary trans and use xe/xem pronouns. I understand they can be difficult to use or to remember to be used for some people. If you don’t want to use my pronouns, then please use my username: Nightinghawk, or NH as shorthand.

OP posts:
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bourbonne · 04/03/2021 18:50

This things about "reducing women to bodily functions" seems to miss the point completely.

Our bodies are what make us women, just as a female sheep's body makes her a ewe.

Everything else - what goes on in our minds, hearts and souls - is unsexed.*

Otherwise, we enter the realm of fluffy pink lady brains and classic, overt sexism.

*(That's an exaggeration. There are obviously patterns and tendencies, socially influenced to a degree still being argued over by neuroscientists, that cluster around the two sexes. And then there is the differing life experience of the two sexes, which will exacerbate those differences. But the point is these are not binary and we don't want to build society around the idea that those with the fluffy pink lady brains do this, and those with the tough blue manly brains do that).

Original poster
Nightinghawk · 04/03/2021 18:43

[quote NewarkShark]@Nightinghawk as you’re in the US, could I ask your view on my concern that US feminism is so focussed on rights for trans women (and being vocal about how transphobic the UK is), that other rights for natal women based on their sex, such as the attack on abortion rights etc? And the fact US maternity tights are generally fairly shit.

I get the sense from social media that these issues are rather taking a back seat in favour of trans issues, but that’s what I glean from social media. Be interested in your views on the ground.

Also whether or not you believe that feminism does need to have a big focus on sex based oppression, and that trans women’s rights should not be a bigger focus than these?[/quote]
Honestly, the amount of campaigning (in quantity and quality) has largely been in favor of abortion rights, if we're talking about which one gets more attention or not. Trans rights at the moment are being brought up by Republicans/GOP/the far right because it's easier for moderates to digest as problematic/aggressive/harmful (regardless of information to the contrary) and as a result easier to radicalize those moderates further into the US right. Abortion rights campaigning has, for quite some time now, taken precedence and has gained the majority favor in the US (over 60% support nationwide, 36% within the GOP), so it's more difficult for Republicans to run on that without losing at least some portion of their base or souring public opinion further. Trans rights is a much easier wedge issue for them to use, which is why it's a much more vocal matter, particularly right now with the Equality Act on the table.

Strangely enough, maternity rights are pushed as the concerns of worker's unions and related groups (from what I've seen) and are ridiculously tossed to the sideline all too frequently. I'm not particularly sure why (aside from the obvious reasons). Although! Good news, it has been brought up quite a few times here and there through more progressive channels, and are often included in more progressive candidates' issues, so it certainly isn't something that is completely static and unchanging and there are movements working to expand and gain traction on the issue.

When it comes to feminism and focusing on sex-based oppression, I'm of the opinion that all feminism does indeed focus primarily on sex-based oppression already (and historically, of course), but that sometimes gets lost in the vocabulary that is used. For the US, as far as I can tell, discussions of gender inherently include sex, which seems to muddy the waters, particularly with regard to how things are discussed in the UK. The logic for this in the US is that in order to discriminate against a person's gender identity (which may or may not be congruent) there must be a conception of the person's physical sex. It isn't particularly an easy yes/no answer.

OP posts:
MarshaBradyo · 04/03/2021 18:42

Hopefully you’ve managed to see that even the FWR board of mumsnet is not transphobic. It’s really not. It’s really just about centring women (biological females) in societal policy.

Yes to this. Also agree with pp that you are welcome to post generally as anyone is. Why would you not be

ErrolTheDragon · 04/03/2021 18:41

to relegate women to mere bodily functions

The only people doing that is the proponents of faux 'inclusive' language menstruators, vulva-owners, cervix-havers, 'black birthing bodies' are some particularly egregious examples. It's certainly not gender critical feminists.Hmm
Oddly enough, the equivalent dehumanising terms are almost never seen in relation to men.

Women's bodies are relevant to feminism when they relate to necessary specific sex-related rights. Maternity, woman's sports etc.

Flamingolingo · 04/03/2021 18:38

Hopefully you’ve managed to see that even the FWR board of mumsnet is not transphobic. It’s really not. It’s really just about centring women (biological females) in societal policy. The trans topic gets a lot of air time because it cuts across almost every other issue, from healthcare, to institutional safety, to work, and sport.

You talk about focusing on women’s reproductivity as being reductive, but I don’t see it that way. It’s the schtick we have been beaten with for millennia, and still are. Whether a woman chooses to reproduce is irrelevant, her ability to will mean discrimination in the workplace, or that medical professionals are unlikely to take health issues seriously. We cannot allow other groups to overwrite our needs and rights, but we are very happy to find a compromise that benefits everyone.

To be quite reductionist myself, the issue has always been, and continues to be, patriarchal values, and men in general. And we are hurtling towards a world where we will end up with a categorisation system that is basically ‘men’ and ‘not men’, and that honestly won’t benefit anyone other than men.

JaneJeffer · 04/03/2021 18:22

to relegate women to mere bodily functions
As a woman my bodily functions are an intrinsic part of me and nobody has reduced me to merely those functions but for instance if I need medical attention then I need to be treated as a woman no matter how I present as my medical needs will be different to natal men. I also think I am entitled to privacy from natal men regarding my bodily functions.

RantyAnty · 04/03/2021 18:22

OP why are you here?

Anyone is welcome here. Most tend not to make a fanfare about it. Pick a user name and join in.

I assure you nobody cares that you are trans. Nobody.

When I first came here, I didn't make a new thread talking about my pronouns and debating it. Why do you feel the need to do so? The navel gazing is precious and unnecessary.

Just post like the rest of us.

Stellwagen · 04/03/2021 18:07

@ArcheryAnnie

I dunno, Nellodee, I think even if I was in the US, I'd object to things like the San Francisco Public Library hosting an "art" exhibition from a transactivist group with a range of weapons specifically designed to attack women who disagree with them, and a host of other material reinforcing the message:
Well yeah. The fundies had nothing to do with that. At least they don't threaten to kill me.
Original poster
Nightinghawk · 04/03/2021 18:05

@WaverleyOwl

For god's sake. It's like arguing with a mirror.

People are not oppressed because of how they self-identify in their own minds. They are oppressed because of how others see them.

Women are oppressed due to their sex. We have rights to combat this.

Trans people are oppressed due to their presentation (if it is contrary to their sex). They have rights to combat this.

Feminism is for biological women ONLY because we are oppressed due to our reproductive capacity. Something that trans women don't face.

Intersectional does not mean that we have to include every man and his dog in feminism. It introduced the idea of including less represented women in feminism, like WOC. Not men that feel like women.

The interesting thing I'm noticing with this argument, which I've seen in different words from others, is that, ultimately, you are saying that both women and trans people are oppressed due to their sex (quote: "Trans people are oppressed due to their presentation (if it is contrary to their sex)"). I honestly was under the impression that GC/trans-exclusionary people wouldn't be on board with this, but count me pleasantly surprised.

(For more context, though I wasn't initially planning on sharing it: I was assigned female at birth.)

I have to argue on the concept of feminism only for "biological women," since I feel that creates exclusion and, depending on the definitions or views loaded in the term, would exclude people who have lived as women their entire life, particularly with how it at times clashes with intersex experiences. I've seen a lot of GC people say that "biological" relates to body parts, reproductive organs, chromosomes, facial features, and I personally find that incredibly reductive for the concept of women (particularly with regards to how beauty standards, anglocentrism, and fatphobia factor in) and inherently exclusionist toward intersex women while attempting to only exclude trans women.

Relating feminism to strict biological categories but also against the oppression of female reproduction seems somewhat counterintuitive to me (though there is truth in women being oppressed due to biological differences), since it appears (in my understanding of it) to relegate women to mere bodily functions rather than expand women beyond the patriarchal expectations constructed around those bodily functions. My understanding of the last few waves of feminism has been to distance the patriarchal concept of defining women by their reproductive organs, while still taking pride in our bodies as a middle finger to the patriarchy.

I do not find trans women to be men, so I do find that the last section of this is a rather moot point; we'd merely be arguing TWAW vs TWANW all day long, for which I'd want a much longer period of time to consecutively work on putting together (which I do not have at the moment). I will try to get to explaining how I see TWAW, but I can't guarantee it'll be anytime soon due to my schedule.

Apologies if some of this sounds a bit awkward or isn't phrased particularly best. There's a lot of noise around me at the moment and it's a touch hard to concentrate.

OP posts:
Cokie3 · 04/03/2021 18:05

ArcheryAnnie That is horrible, but these TRAs are misogynists and work in tangent with the MRAs. They are so full of hate and violence, then again that tends to come from testosterone, which comes back to the point of protecting women from men. These people supporting that hateful and violent exhibit are either very brainwashed and needed a bandwagon to jump on as an outlet for their violent hatred, or so full of hate for women.

JaneJeffer · 04/03/2021 17:35

Oh that makes me feel sick @ArcheryAnnie

CandyLeBonBon · 04/03/2021 17:34

That's appalling @ArcheryAnnie

Liquorishtoffee · 04/03/2021 17:30

I still don’t really understand what the point of that exhibition was and who thought it was a good idea?

ArcheryAnnie · 04/03/2021 17:28

I dunno, Nellodee, I think even if I was in the US, I'd object to things like the San Francisco Public Library hosting an "art" exhibition from a transactivist group with a range of weapons specifically designed to attack women who disagree with them, and a host of other material reinforcing the message:

Mumsnet Says They Are Trans Friendly; What do you think?
Mumsnet Says They Are Trans Friendly; What do you think?
TheChampagneGalop · 04/03/2021 17:22

You know, it would never occur to me to sign up on a site for American trans people and ask them if it was a female-friendly space.

DeusEx · 04/03/2021 17:09

@Nellodee

I honestly think if I was living in the US under Trump, I would probably have been out there marching, chanting trans rights are human rights. I would have had reservations on women in sport and prisons, but I think I would have overlooked them and focused on the ways in which transgender people were being discriminated against. Over here, I think transgender people have a fairly comfortable provision in law, even more so in the way it is interpreted, and it is definitely woman who are currently more in need of protections. I think the same frictions exist in the US, but they are very much buried under a steaming pile of ultra right wing conservative Christian injustice. I genuinely think if I lived in the us, I may well mistake the very different concerns of U.K. feminists as a similar kind of transphobia. It is not the same thing at all.
Yes! Round of applause for all of this!!
NewarkShark · 04/03/2021 17:09

[quote NewarkShark]@Nightinghawk as you’re in the US, could I ask your view on my concern that US feminism is so focussed on rights for trans women (and being vocal about how transphobic the UK is), that other rights for natal women based on their sex, such as the attack on abortion rights etc? And the fact US maternity tights are generally fairly shit.

I get the sense from social media that these issues are rather taking a back seat in favour of trans issues, but that’s what I glean from social media. Be interested in your views on the ground.

Also whether or not you believe that feminism does need to have a big focus on sex based oppression, and that trans women’s rights should not be a bigger focus than these?[/quote]
To clarify I mean things like right to compete in women’s sport, access to women’s spaces. Not the right not to be denied housing for being trans etc, which I understand affects all trans people not just women (which I am appalled by and would also be out marching against this).

Nellodee · 04/03/2021 17:03

I honestly think if I was living in the US under Trump, I would probably have been out there marching, chanting trans rights are human rights. I would have had reservations on women in sport and prisons, but I think I would have overlooked them and focused on the ways in which transgender people were being discriminated against.
Over here, I think transgender people have a fairly comfortable provision in law, even more so in the way it is interpreted, and it is definitely woman who are currently more in need of protections.
I think the same frictions exist in the US, but they are very much buried under a steaming pile of ultra right wing conservative Christian injustice. I genuinely think if I lived in the us, I may well mistake the very different concerns of U.K. feminists as a similar kind of transphobia.
It is not the same thing at all.

NewarkShark · 04/03/2021 17:02

@Nightinghawk as you’re in the US, could I ask your view on my concern that US feminism is so focussed on rights for trans women (and being vocal about how transphobic the UK is), that other rights for natal women based on their sex, such as the attack on abortion rights etc? And the fact US maternity tights are generally fairly shit.

I get the sense from social media that these issues are rather taking a back seat in favour of trans issues, but that’s what I glean from social media. Be interested in your views on the ground.

Also whether or not you believe that feminism does need to have a big focus on sex based oppression, and that trans women’s rights should not be a bigger focus than these?

JeansNTees · 04/03/2021 16:38

MN is extremely respectful of trans rights and deletes posts and has moderation rules, unlike plenty of other forums. Try a forum with mostly men speaking freely, plenty of real transphobia and zero consquences.

Fembot123 · 04/03/2021 16:32

What does Cis mean, and Non binary trans annnd Xe/Xem?

Oblomov21 · 04/03/2021 16:27

I hate the reference to Mn as transphobic. I don't think it is.
I can't see that being concerned is the same as being transphobic. Concerned about women's rights. Concerned that it's a very sad and lonely path a trans person goes on: wanting something they can't have. Are they a woman? No.

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 04/03/2021 16:19

Thanks Ova for that recommendation. They donate £1 from every order to food banks for every mask sold too. Grin

bourbonne · 04/03/2021 16:06

What we do do is campaign to clarify the meaning of the existing laws. As you'll have read, @Nightinghawk, the Gender Recognition Act and the Equality Act are not particularly well-integrated with each other, and both contain potential ambiguities. That's why there are quite a few crowd-funded judicial reviews ongoing, seeking to clarify how these laws are translated into policy. Many of us believe that lobby groups have misinterpreted the law (or its intended spirit), and influenced public bodies to implement unlawful policies.

StringyPotatoes · 04/03/2021 15:56

"I probably should have mentioned this before as well, but I'm based in the US, so there may be some discrepancies in the discussion as a result of that."

You realise this is a UK-based forum, right?

It sounds like there are a lot of injustices facing your community in the US but the same is not true here in the UK.

I'm not saying we're perfect and that trans people don't face prejudice etc here but at least their rights are actually protected in law.

There are not "discrepancies" in the discussion. You're asking us to debate whether campaigning against existing laws is transphobic and literally no MN threads have called for that. It would absolutely be transphobic. I don't know what US citizens are campaigning for? Confused

A better question would be "do you think that, denying trans people additional rights beyond those already in UK law, that erase the rights of women as stated in UK law, is transphobic?"