Mumsnet Says They Are Trans Friendly; What do you think?

I think there is a real cognitive dissonance

There is a whole host of cognitive dissonance surrounding trance issues. Being transgender is like cognitive dissonance in that there is a dissonance between the gendered mind and the sexed body.

The only way to solve the issues is to be at peace with neurological diversity which means people's brains do not fall into neat categories and neither do people's gender expression. This is an individual and a societal issue. It is societal when society discriminates against those with neurological diversity (which also in turn could possibly affect that diversity through epigenetic changes in brain physiology) and the resulting diversity in gender expression.

Although we can not determine the sex of people's brains very easily due to neurological diversity, we can determine through out genes. Gender and sex are different and separate from each other.

mishi, are you genuinely saying that racial segregation and sex segregation are the same thing? Do you really think that?

So your position would be mixed sex everything, always- sports, prisons, refuges, changing rooms, hospital wards, everything. No single sex provision anywhere at any time?

Is that right?

It does.

*provocative

Seems best not to engage.

Sounds awfully familiar. As do the arguments and fears of safety.

It's not remotely familiar. Women are not in power, males are not an oppressed class.

Women are statistically at risk from male people. We also need single sex spaces for our privacy and dignity. This is the view of most women in the U.K., who are only comfortable with males in their changing rooms and toilets if they have had gender reassignment surgery.

Why do the feelings of a small group of male people count more than the concerns and feelings of a large proportion of women, who make up half the population and have unique needs not shared by males?

If your feminism doesn't include all females, its not feminism.

Feminism isn't transexclusionary. It's for females, for the liberation from sex based oppression and the chains of gender roles.

Oh, and we needs to ease 'society's discomfort' regarding seeing gender expressions that do not fit into traditional sexual stereotypes by making provisions to ensure gender expression is not discriminated against.

However, this needs to be done whilst maintaining single sex protections and provisions. Since gender and sex are disconnected and distinctly different, as I said, there needs to be separate provision for each.

Eteri

The script never changes an inch, it's like pressing the button on a talking doll and at this point it's just boring. There's no productive conversation to be had on the topic here.

What would you consider a productive outcome to the conversation?

Can you put yourself in our shoes and understand the concerns we are discussing?

Can you specify exactly what you would like women to consider from your side of the table?

Do you think women are right to want to have an open conversation about this matter?

I am female. I am an adult. I am not being discriminated against if I am refused access to a service which is only provided to children.

We have (single sex) protections and provisions made for biologically female women under UK law.

Gender being disconnected from someone's sex means separate provisions and protections are required. The needs are separate and different.

Gender being essentially a social construct which is concerned with ideologies and how people think individually, I would say, requires provision which is centred in psychology. It should be aimed at easing the internal discomfort felt when someone feels their gender doesn't match their sex. Which is an unease over their body at even the cellular level (since sex in in our DNA). If we can ease that discomfort then there is much less of a problem. My thoughts are that, since gender expression can be pretty varied and fluid between the sexes, there is no real need to feel a mismatch. It is important this is tackled, for peace of mind, since we cannot eradicate or change our very DNA.

I think there is a real cognitive dissonance there about how these are real people, not some ideological bogeyman out to spite their rights.

Of course they're real people, and you'll find a lot of sympathetic comments here about children and young people who hate their bodies enough to want to make extreme, irreversible changes to them. But please don't attack us for wanting to try to prevent those children from making mistakes that they will have to live with for the rest of their lives.

I missed kaineus’s posts last night, and really enjoyed reading them this morning. Thoughtful and civilised. I had high hopes that the thread could be productive with posts like that. But what baffles me is that posters who purport to be trans allies don’t seem to have noticed that contribution and this morning have apparently scrolled right by them and would prefer to continue to just focus on how awful FWR and the women here are, and how we’re immune to reason or human kindness.

Huh.

My feminism does include all women. All adult human females, as well as all girls. Every single female, however they present or identify, comes under the protection of my feminism and I advocate for them on many levels.

"if your feminism centres men its not feminism" fixed that for you

plenty of posters whose concerns are purely based on protecting cis women's rights

Why do posters insist on using cis word

I'd imagine this is a difficult place for a trans person to post - while there are plenty of posters whose concerns are purely based on protecting cis women's rights (and debate about when's appropriate to medically transition trans kids, which for a parenting forum I think is understandable) there are also a lot of sly dogwhistles and subtle(ish) anti-trans sentiments flying about, and a HUGE amount of sneering comments about pronouns, and a frankly odd amount of focus on bathrooms.

The 'odd amount of focus on bathrooms' (I assume you mean toilets) is due to the TRAs who often try to steer the discussion in that direction rather than all the other things the regular posters on here want to discuss. I don't know why TRAs are obsessed with toilets, but let's be clear about where most of those posts come from.

Secondly, we sometimes have to used shared bedrooms for students. Given that the university allows students to use whatever facilities suit their self-defined gender, it is only a matter of time before a female student finds herself in a shared bedroom with a male student. Her only choice at that point will be to leave, because the university's policies will not be on her side.

I've said before on here, when I went to university halls I had just come out of a very fucked up violent and abusive relationship with a very controlling young man. I couldn't have handled sharing with a male person, it would have been the last straw.

Third spaces, services and provisions would deal with the immediate personal needs of everyone.

Exactly. But some people just don't want that.

And it's not just about toilets. To take just the example of accommodation at the university I work at.

There used to be single sex accommodation blocks. These were primarily used by students from conservative cultural backgrounds, whose parents were often reluctant to let them go to university at all. The gender lobby campaigned, successfully, to make these single-gender. As a consequence, no one used them any more and they ended up becoming standard accommodation. So that's a group of students whose lives could have been changed by going to university who are no longer able to benefit from that.

Secondly, we sometimes have to used shared bedrooms for students. Given that the university allows students to use whatever facilities suit their self-defined gender, it is only a matter of time before a female student finds herself in a shared bedroom with a male student. Her only choice at that point will be to leave, because the university's policies will not be on her side.

From that Telegraph piece:

The Twitter argument that played out this week had a strong “Kevin the Teenager” vibe, with young activists kicking the skirting boards and accusing Mumsnet of being a total fascist, while Mumsnet adopted the firm-but-fair tone of a mother inwardly rolling her eyes to heaven. As a mum myself, I would be tempted to laugh, if it didn’t feel so close to home.

this is great.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/03/04/trans-activists-moaning-mumsnet-behaving-like-kids/

MN is as a previous poster said a site for parents , it is MumsNet, of course other people can join it's an exclusive club. The concerns are of parents who are worried about these issues for future generations. There is a difference between being "friendly" or tolerant to agreeing with or supporting a view.