Mumsnet Says They Are Trans Friendly; What do you think?

If somebody is uncomfortable with somebody peeing in the privacy of a stall or sleeping in the next tent, that's there own problem.

But cubicles do not always provide much privacy or protection, and many women suffer from trauma because of past experiences with the male sex. I can understand why their feelings would not be your priority, but do not understand why you wouldn't understand that both groups should be taken into account at a policy level.

I think there is a tendency in our current society to try and medicalise any form of neurological diversity and it's expression. Yes, it is uncomfortable not fitting in with societal norms. Yes, it can feel nice and safe to have professionals come and help someone appear as if they are more 'normal' by altering their appearance surgically and giving them hormonal treatments. The hormonal treatments might even make them feel more 'normal' too, Yes, it can feel nice if new laws and rules are made to make special allowances for behaviour which is different to what is usually seen as 'normal and acceptable'.

However drugs have side effects and every surgery has risks.

What is far, far less diverse in human is the fact pretty much all people fall into one of two sex categories, male or female. It is written into our very DNA at a cellular level.

It is my opinion, some degree of neurological diversity is so universally common (in one way or another), it is normal. It cannot really be treated with medications and surgery very easily or successfully. Society has to make accommodations and provisions for different expressions of all kinds of neurological diversity. Someone having a different (gender) expression and (personal) identity to other people of their sex class is so common it is normal.

What can be harmful, however, is when society's restrictive and reductive stereotyping results in someone feeling there is a discordance between their own mind and body. They want to fit in with society but it does not feel good to them. The mind and body needs to work in harmony otherwise the ultimate result is self destructive. Except sex cannot be changed, only gender. People can be fluid and flexible and change their minds on gender. Society can change so gender norms are so loose and fragmented, they are non existent. Society can also protect against prejudice for different gender expression.

But differences between the sexes still remain, sex cannot be changed and females still need single sex provisions and protection.

To label eople bigots just because you don't agree with them is intolerant and bullying. This is not to racial discrimination as people are born into their race, also children and young people can't change their race. This is totally different

did I teach my dd to prioritize the sensitives of others above her own needs, of course not.

Why do you feel is it your male childs need to use female spaces, but a female child who makes the same request is just sensitive?

To do this I use a definition of women that I think is satisfyingly straightforward but some find contentious: a women is an adult human female, born with anatomical biology ordered towards the production of large gametes. The actual production or not is by the by, it's the "ordered towards" that makes the difference for me.

Yes, it's mine too.

If you mean did I teach my dd to prioritize the sensitives of others above her own needs, of course not. If somebody is uncomfortable with somebody peeing in the privacy of a stall or sleeping in the next tent, that's there own problem. It wasn't mine, and I certainly wasn't going to make it my dd's, who was just trying to live her life and truth.

I think it is vitally important to be able to discuss existing legal rights. If that wasn't possible, we would still be in a situation where women can't vote.

That said, I support current anti-discrimination laws that mean people are protected against being sacked because they are trans, denied the ability to rent a home because they are black, or prevented from getting married because they are gay. Or in any combination at all in fact.

I specifically centre the rights of women in my feminism and I do this by seeking out female voices when I am learning new things or following interests / hobbies on you tube, in the money I spend where I can support female-run businesses, and in supporting the rights of women and girls to function in this world with safety, dignity and privacy.

To do this I use a definition of women that I think is satisfyingly straightforward but some find contentious: a women is an adult human female, born with anatomical biology ordered towards the production of large gametes. The actual production or not is by the by, it's the "ordered towards" that makes the difference for me.

I don't see a way forward for either group if it's impossible to even acknowledge a conflict of rights.

This.
So many people refuse to see this conflict of rights, and would rather pretend were all exactly the same and questioning that is just hatred.

A lot of racist discrimination in 1960s America was not explicit - e.g. 'grandfather laws' prevented black people from voting without mentioning race. It's only possible to talk about that if you can describe the group of people affected.

A lot of sex based discrimination against women is indirect, and again, it can't be described if sex can't be defined in legislation. It's not surprising that people on a site largely focused on women (willingly or unwillingly) dealing with reproductive processes are concerned about loss of sex based rights.

However, it's easy to see how sex based segregation can discriminate against people who are uncomfortable with their sex, and deprive them of access to services. You then have a conflict of rights that needs to be resolved, but you can't address that if you can't talk clearly about the needs of different groups.

I don't see a way forward for either group if it's impossible to even acknowledge a conflict of rights.

Places that are considered "trans friendly" are quite often pretty hostile to women and girls. Because some of the things trans activists and feminists clash over are zero sum, ie both sides can't be accommodated as they deny rights to the other.

Me too. It's not really possible to be all things to all people. I'm sure most trans activists think we should be referring to ourselves as "people with wombs" like someone did the other day.

Eteri so you never stopped for a second to think of how school girls would feel being forced to share a space with a teenage male?

Not beyond worrying about whether dd was going to be accepted and if girls would be kind to her. They always were, we never had any issues. End of story.

Did you not teach your child to be considerate to the girls in this situation? And that they might be scared or embarrassed to have someone who was obviously physically male in what should have been a female-only space? And that it might be seen as kindness from your child if they did not use such spaces, rather than entitlement if they used them regardless of the feelings of the girls?

You were only concerned that the girls were 'kind' to your child. Did you also expect that your child should be kind and considerate towards those girls? Is kindness only a requirement for female people towards male people?

I'm more interested in whether this site is woman-friendly.

Not beyond worrying about whether dd was going to be accepted and if girls would be kind to her. They always were, we never had any issues. End of story.

Sorry but you can't actually know there were no issues. Girls are groomed to #bekind from a very young age even when it goes against their instincts and their best interests.

How kind would you have been to any girl who did speak up about her discomfort?

Bigoted views are often rehashed and packaged in the same ways. It is with hindsight you can see them for what they are

Absolutely. Sexism and misogyny has indeed been rehashed and packaged in a new way.

I think stopping calling every person who supports trans rights publicly TRAs would be a start on that journey. Words do indeed have meaning.

I support trans rights. I also support women's rights.

TRAs are the people who campaign for removing women's rights in order to give special privileges to people who identify as transgender. I will continue to use the term TRA for anyone who appears to fit this description.

Not beyond worrying about whether dd was going to be accepted and if girls would be kind to her. They always were, we never had any issues. End of story

Obviously as a parent of a vulnerable child, we can all understand that.

But you also need to be aware of the fact that these days all sorts of people transition, and for different reasons and motivations; including many middle aged men who, for example, have spent a life time cross dressing, are heterosexual, usually married with children. They often have no intention for full medical transition.

And the push for self ID means that anyone who says they are a woman is a woman, and must therefore be given full access to women's safe, intimate spaces, services and sports.

It is understandable for you to be concerned for your child, but you must also understand that what is at stake for women everywhere is the erosion of all that they have fought for; even to the point of no longer being free to use the language that is natural for them to use about their own experience in a female body.

I'm sure South Africa up until the 1980s and America into the 1960s had such third spaces for non white people

There is no reason to segregate spaces by race.

There is sometimes reason to segregate spaces by sex.

Conflation of sex and race implies a belief that the difference between races is as consequential as the difference between sexes, which many would call racism.

Disgusted did I say everyone who actively supports trans rights is a TRA?
Nope.

So why ignore everything I said to clarify that?

This is why no conversation isnt productive. Theres no attempt to even try and engage with any of the points made

I think stopping calling every person who supports trans rights publicly TRAs would be a start on that journey.

I "support trans rights". But as a feminist, I centre women and girls and recognise that we have a clash of competing rights in certain circumstances. If you prioritise trans rights over women's rights you (general you) are a trans rights activist.

great posts from kaineus - glad you delurked. I am also not in the UK - welcome (still RTFT)

All couched up as "critical debate". Just change trans for the word gay or black in any of the commentary on Mumsnet and the feminism board to do with trans people, and you can see how bad some of it truly is. (And this is the stuff that the mods do not delete first!

Gay men and black men were not demanding access to women's spaces, services and sports. What they sought were equal civil rights. which they now have. Everyone now has the right to marry, to vote, to employment protections and so on.

Until Mumsnet addresses this, my answer would be a firm "No". Mumsnet is not a safe place for transgender people or trans parents

If women are so dangerous, why on earth would you suggest vulnerable people sharing should an intimate space with them? Wouldn't you be better off campaigning for equal provision so that all could have their feelings, comfort, safety, and dignity requirements met?

Ref Childhood body dysmorphia.

Body Dysmorphic Disorder: Treatment

Treatment for body dysmorphic disorder includes cognitive behavioral therapy and medications such as selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs). In severe cases, when a child or adolescent is in danger of harming herself, psychiatric hospitalization may be required. Cosmetic surgery is not believed to be a successful treatment for body dysmorphic disorder. At best, cosmetic surgery may provide a temporary fix, but it does not treat the root causes of the disorder. Following cosmetic surgery for a perceived flaw, a child or adolescent may begin obsessing over a new perceived flaw in her appearance

I’m sorry to hear of your child’s distress Eteri. This seems to be a psychiatric condition so I hope you were able to access the appropriate treatment- I realise that resources are limited in this area.
I don’t understand the link between that condition and the transitioning but I’m guessing a doctor made the recommendation to change the type of treatment? (I have no idea if your DC has undergone any medical transition but I’m guessing there must have been some).

Don’t feel obliged to answer but I would be interested if you wanted to.