Mumsnet Says They Are Trans Friendly; What do you think?

If somebody is uncomfortable with somebody peeing in the privacy of a stall or sleeping in the next tent, that's there own problem

That's a pretty harsh philosophy.

I recall when I first started my period, aged 12. It was bad enough having to deal with this fact at school, without having the further embarrassment of having boys from my class in there too. Girls are often especially bashful during puberty, and this is a natural, instinctive response.

They do have the same needs and nobody is stopping them from doing so or saying they can't use female spaces.

You keep dodging the issue which is that some women can't use unisex spaces.

I teach all my children to avoid whipping their genitals out in public

"Whipping out their genitals" is not something that I would associate with girls, because there is nothing to "whip out". girls and women are used to natural discretion in such circumstances, and do not use urinals.

You often see men taking a piss at the side of a road/motorway - in a way I've never ever seen a woman do.

If their had been a teenage trans woman in the school loo when I was a teenager I wouldn’t have used the loo. Especially when on my period. Just the noise of the sanitary bin opening / the rustling of the sanitary towel wrapper was hugely embarrassing to me as a teen. I don’t care now. But it would have made life quite difficult then.

WoolOfBat the old guidance was that parents wouldnt be told, and with so many girls afraid to speak up its became a huge problem where girls just wouldnt use the loo during the day.

Utterly heartbreaking.

Eteri you have just agreed females need female spaces.

So how do you defend a male entering those spaces?

Just thinking about how this would play out in our (high ethnic minority) school. A biologically male child in the girls loos after puberty... that would basically mean that all Muslim girls would be unable to adjust their hijabs... or (I believe) wash properly before prayer.

I guess PPs child did not go to a school with any Muslims? Or did you have a conversation with an understanding Imam?

And @merrymouse makes an excellent point about privilege. Many of the situations where this stuff really really matters (refuges, prisons) are not places I am ever likely to find myself. But those service users are extremely vulnerable which is why privileged women like me need to vocalise on this issue.

Eteri if that is truly the case then why havent you told your male child that?

Why do you describe it as a need for males to use female spaces, but dont think females have the same needs?

Except you clearly do care, otherwise you wouldn’t be seeking this solution for your child. I think maybe you’re unable to be objective about this because it is so personal, but just as you assert that your own child’s well-being is top priority for you and you won’t compromise it (understandable), in taking this position you are expecting every other person to put their child’s needs below yours (hypocritical).

I want to assert that I don’t consider your child is an actual and specific threat on their own, but this ideological approach puts many women and children at risk.

I'm struggling to think of something I care less about than whose using the stall opposite in a public toilet.

Generally me too. This makes us both privileged. Do you understand that other people don't have that privilege?

But Eteri, your child obviously does care about it and that’s why they use the women’s loos. If it doesn’t matter to you why does it matter to your child?

You can make changes so that both your sex and race are perceived differently.

We are, and always have been open to compromise, but what don't engage in is the tantrum foot stomping where it's expected we're the only ones who have to change our behavior.

So you want everyone else to change to suit your child. Why should the world change for your child just because they hate their body?

I am sympathetic towards people who suffer from extreme body hatred. But the solution to that is not to pretend that they can change sex and try to convince the rest of the world that they have.

Obviously your child is special to you, and you want the best solution for your child. But you need to recognise that other people have rights too. And you're not being asked to change your behaviour, just to comply with the same rules as everyone else.

Because we're not the ones saying that they can't use those spaces. If you want to use them, use them, if you don't, don't, but don't try to make it our problem.

Eteri your male chikd had male spaces they could use.

It isnt up to you, or your child, to say who uses female spaces. The law allows for sex segregated spaces in school, and as both a parent and a teacher, Im utterly sick of this being challenged.

So I will repeat excatly what you said back at you. If your male child doesnt want to use male spaces, dont make it the problem of every girl, parent and teacher to solve.

I can see that you would like it, though.

People are born a specific race - they can't change this, it is not a choice. People are born a specific sex they can't change it. Many people believe that gender at birth can't be changed thought individuals may have traits of both genders . The point is changing either gender or sex is a conscious choice - you cannot change your race.

You made it their problem, not the other way around because they are female in their female spaces and your child is male.

So many people refuse to see this conflict of rights, and would rather pretend were all exactly the same and questioning that is just hatred.

This is what polarises the debate. On the gender-critical side, we acknowledge a conflict between rights associated with sex and rights associated with gender identity, and we call for that conflict to be respectfully discussed and resolved in a context-specific way. On the trans right activist side there's on the face of it an assertion that there can't possibly be a conflict of rights because everyone should accept that trans women are women and anything else is bigotry. But presumably those taking this view do actually understand that there's a conflict between rights associated with sex and rights associated with gender identity - their insistence that any mention or discussion of women's sex-based rights is a "transphobic dog-whistle" surely has at its heart the knowledge that there is a conflict.

I don't believe in gender identity and I don't experience myself as having such a thing. But I accept that some other people do, and it's core to their sense of who they are. Fair enough. I accept their reality, and their rights, which is why I want discussion and resolution of the conflict in a way that can protect members of both groups. But we don't get that reciprocated from the other side, who insist that the experience of some women, that we need our sex-based rights, isn't valid or allowable.

Respect for others' different experiences has to be a two-way street and I don't see how we're to move forward without resolution of the conflict arising from these two sets of experiences. The thing that seems to be blocking the dialogue we need in order to explore and address the conflict is the constant insistence from the extremists in the trans rights movement that women's and girls' sex-based rights have to be binned.

If you mean did I teach my dd to prioritize the sensitives of others above her own needs, of course not. If somebody is uncomfortable with somebody peeing in the privacy of a stall or sleeping in the next tent, that's there own problem. It wasn't mine, and I certainly wasn't going to make it my dd's, who was just trying to live her life and truth.

Can you explain why your child had a 'need' to be in a female only space? Why couldn't they use the male space?

This is not to racial discrimination as people are born into their race, also children and young people can't change their race. This is totally different

Not following your logic here.