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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

FFS re. Hilaria & Alec Baldwin and normalisation of surrogacy

238 replies

PatienceVirtue · 03/03/2021 14:15

www.etonline.com/hilaria-and-alec-baldwins-daughter-lucia-was-born-via-surrogate-161509

The Baldwins, a baby-hungry 'Spaniard' and rich Hollywood male, have had a sixth (sixth!) child six months after having their fifth. Apparently by surrogacy, well it wasn't carried by her obviously. Which means they implanted an embryo or embryos into some poor womb-holder while she was already heavily pregnant with their fifth child.

Why? FFS. I just don't understand it. Originally surrogacy was sold as solution to the utter misery of infertility and I feel a great deal of sympathy with this. But when it becomes the go-to of extremely wealthy families who already have numerous children (cf Kim Kardashian, Robbie Williams et al), then its exploitative and transactional nature is exposed.

I can't bear the way it's become so normalised to use women like ovens. Stop call it carrying a baby, like they're handbags. It's growing a baby from a microscopic dot to a newborn.

OP posts:
zzizzer · 12/03/2021 20:10

You might not like it, but it IS an issue for other people and saying it doesn't involve others is incorrect. It isn't just about a bunch of consenting adults, and it isn't even always that either.

Clearly someone you know has benefited from this, and you don't like that some people think its abominable - because you're protective over them.

But this isn't about you, your loved ones, or what you personally would like.

It's about the rights of women who don't always get to make a "loving gift" decision without any negative consequences, and (for me) about the rights of those who are created and torn away from their mums in an instant - something which in adoption circles is known to be so goddamn damaging that its limited as much as possible.

BirthChoice · 12/03/2021 20:09

It’s not a rumour or a blind item that they used a surrogate to have a girl.
There is literally a post on her Instagram after this newest baby was born saying that they’d promised their children a sister.

TableFlowerss · 12/03/2021 20:08

point

TableFlowerss · 12/03/2021 20:07

@OhHolyJesus

Here we go, always conflating abortion and reproductive rights with surrogacy and calling it all 'extreme' when anyone dared to have a dissenting opinion.

It’s not your place to decide whether thats morally wrong.

We all have a moral compass and we want decide what we do and don't agree with.

I have never been a victim of domestic abuse but it doesn't stop me from have empathy with, and campaigning for, women who do. Ditto breast cancer, ditto rape survivor. It's called empathy and to get a fully rounded view I listen to all of those involved in surrogacy, not just the media who propagate the fluffy version of events or the surrogacy agencies or family lawyers who benefit financially.

.... neither does surrogacy!

Surrogacy, by its very definition, removes a newly born baby from their mother. It doesn't create an orphan as the mother, I hope, is not dead, but she is absent and they do not know her as a mother, in fact many of not most surrogate mothers do not consider themselves to be a mother by virtue of having giving birth to them, but merely an 'orphan' or 'extreme babysitter'.

From Jan Moir in the Daily Mail today...Baldwin 'double babied'. Well how lovely and wholesome and not at selfish, narcissistic or exploitative. I hope they tell the little girl the origins of her birth and she knows her mother, the woman who gave birth to her and she doesn't take her money and run back to her own family to feed her own children with the womb rental money:

Potential parents using surrogates for motherhood is nothing new.

In the UK, parental orders transferring legal rights from a surrogate to the parents tripled from 121 in 2011 to 368 in 2018 — and one can only imagine the heartbreak and joy that lies behind those figures.

At the age of 73, newscaster Jon Snow and his wife Precious have just had a surrogate baby after 11 years of marriage and many medical setbacks and miscarriages.

‘We will always be deeply grateful to our surrogate who carried our embryo to term,’ he said this week.

Meanwhile, Alec and Hilaria Baldwin welcomed a surrogate daughter just months after she gave birth to their fifth child.

Hilaria said that she ‘double-babied’ because her children ‘were grieving’ for the child she had miscarried last year before getting pregnant again.

Confused? Read on.

A new BBC series The Surrogates told the story of Caitlin, who had a baby for her boss, Kate.

That might be taking company loyalty to extremes and one wonders what kind of corporate environment compliance allowed it to go ahead.

There is so much potential for surrogacy to go wrong. Many argue about the lack of boundaries and how it turns life itself into a commodity, along with potentially leaving children in lifelong confusion about the identity of their own mother.

On the other hand, it can bring untold joy to couples who might not otherwise be able to experience parenthood.

To want to have a child so much that you are prepared to go through all this says one very important thing — that the baby is cherished, wanted and needed, therefore already blessed.

Your pony isn’t any more validated because you’ve copied and pasted from an article......

It actually conflicts, as the bottom paragraphs see the positive aspect of it.

All that orphan rubbish....

TableFlowerss · 12/03/2021 20:04

@MissBarbary

At the age of 73, newscaster Jon Snow and his wife Precious have just had a surrogate baby after 11 years of marriage and many medical setbacks and miscarriages

I didn't know that. He is so sanctimonious on Channel 4 News.

As for opposing surrogacy being an extreme view - does TableFlowers think the governments of Italy, Spain, France, Portugal, Bulgaria and Sweden are extremists? They ban surrogacy.

What other countries do/do not agree with is of no concern.

Some countries support euthanasia. They think it’s perfectly reasonable and it’s completely legal. Not all countries share the same view.

Some countries support the woman’s choice for abortion, some have all but made it criminal.

Choice and freedom to chose is what I believe. If a consenting adult wants to do this for a loved one then it’s no business of anyone’s.

TableFlowerss · 12/03/2021 19:59

But buying the basic model baby is just fine

I have given specific examples of when a family member or close friend CHOSE to do it for someone they care about. They are willing to put themselves through it for love, not money!!!! 🙄

MissBarbary · 12/03/2021 19:15

@TableFlowerss

BTW I don’t believe in having preferred eggs for sex, eye colour, hate colour and the like and the thought of celebs paying for these ‘extras’ makes me feel sick.
But buying the basic model baby is just fine.
MissBarbary · 12/03/2021 19:11

At the age of 73, newscaster Jon Snow and his wife Precious have just had a surrogate baby after 11 years of marriage and many medical setbacks and miscarriages

I didn't know that. He is so sanctimonious on Channel 4 News.

As for opposing surrogacy being an extreme view - does TableFlowers think the governments of Italy, Spain, France, Portugal, Bulgaria and Sweden are extremists? They ban surrogacy.

Delphinium20 · 12/03/2021 18:54

I have never been a victim of domestic abuse but it doesn't stop me from have empathy with, and campaigning for, women who do. Ditto breast cancer, ditto rape survivor. It's called empathy and to get a fully rounded view I listen to all of those involved in surrogacy, not just the media who propagate the fluffy version of events or the surrogacy agencies or family lawyers who benefit financially.*

Well said!

OhHolyJesus · 12/03/2021 18:48

Here we go, always conflating abortion and reproductive rights with surrogacy and calling it all 'extreme' when anyone dared to have a dissenting opinion.

It’s not your place to decide whether thats morally wrong.

We all have a moral compass and we want decide what we do and don't agree with.

I have never been a victim of domestic abuse but it doesn't stop me from have empathy with, and campaigning for, women who do. Ditto breast cancer, ditto rape survivor. It's called empathy and to get a fully rounded view I listen to all of those involved in surrogacy, not just the media who propagate the fluffy version of events or the surrogacy agencies or family lawyers who benefit financially.

.... neither does surrogacy!

Surrogacy, by its very definition, removes a newly born baby from their mother. It doesn't create an orphan as the mother, I hope, is not dead, but she is absent and they do not know her as a mother, in fact many of not most surrogate mothers do not consider themselves to be a mother by virtue of having giving birth to them, but merely an 'orphan' or 'extreme babysitter'.

From Jan Moir in the Daily Mail today...Baldwin 'double babied'. Well how lovely and wholesome and not at selfish, narcissistic or exploitative. I hope they tell the little girl the origins of her birth and she knows her mother, the woman who gave birth to her and she doesn't take her money and run back to her own family to feed her own children with the womb rental money:

Potential parents using surrogates for motherhood is nothing new.

In the UK, parental orders transferring legal rights from a surrogate to the parents tripled from 121 in 2011 to 368 in 2018 — and one can only imagine the heartbreak and joy that lies behind those figures.

At the age of 73, newscaster Jon Snow and his wife Precious have just had a surrogate baby after 11 years of marriage and many medical setbacks and miscarriages.

‘We will always be deeply grateful to our surrogate who carried our embryo to term,’ he said this week.

Meanwhile, Alec and Hilaria Baldwin welcomed a surrogate daughter just months after she gave birth to their fifth child.

Hilaria said that she ‘double-babied’ because her children ‘were grieving’ for the child she had miscarried last year before getting pregnant again.

Confused? Read on.

A new BBC series The Surrogates told the story of Caitlin, who had a baby for her boss, Kate.

That might be taking company loyalty to extremes and one wonders what kind of corporate environment compliance allowed it to go ahead.

There is so much potential for surrogacy to go wrong. Many argue about the lack of boundaries and how it turns life itself into a commodity, along with potentially leaving children in lifelong confusion about the identity of their own mother.

On the other hand, it can bring untold joy to couples who might not otherwise be able to experience parenthood.

To want to have a child so much that you are prepared to go through all this says one very important thing — that the baby is cherished, wanted and needed, therefore already blessed.

TableFlowerss · 12/03/2021 18:41

BTW I don’t believe in having preferred eggs for sex, eye colour, hate colour and the like and the thought of celebs paying for these ‘extras’ makes me feel sick.

TableFlowerss · 12/03/2021 18:39

@zzizzer

Table, this isn't like giving a friend a nice bunch of flowers or something because they really want it.

It's creating a unique person, it's creating and shaping someone's whole entire life.

No one is owed that - no one.

IVF does not create an orphan.

.... neither does surrogacy!
TableFlowerss · 12/03/2021 18:36

@MissBarbary

Where do you draw the line with intervention regrading making babies? Do you oppose to IVF because it’s not that standard way?

Yes, I do actually.

It’s not your place to decide whether thats morally wrong

It's certainly not your place to tell people that they have no right to express a view on the morality of surrogacy.

Nor to use your favourite phrase , is it "any of your business" to tell other posters they cannot campaign against surrogacy. Plenty of other countries have determined it is wrong. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to prevent anyone campaigning for the same position in the UK.

Well I’m not surprised you’ve got extremist views on the matter when you oppose to IVF too. I suppose you think they should ban abortion too? 🙄
zzizzer · 12/03/2021 18:19

Table, this isn't like giving a friend a nice bunch of flowers or something because they really want it.

It's creating a unique person, it's creating and shaping someone's whole entire life.

No one is owed that - no one.

IVF does not create an orphan.

Delphinium20 · 12/03/2021 17:53

For the record, I'm not opposed to IVF.

MsTSwift · 12/03/2021 17:53

Appalling. I also agree surrogacy is wrong in any circumstance.

Delphinium20 · 12/03/2021 17:50

Many women who have experienced infertility are opposed to surrogacy and did not pursue that as an option to becoming a parent.

No one is owed a baby. No one is owed a woman's body to gestate "their" baby. I think this celebrity surrogacy is especially problematic because they have so much privilege and money.

Even still how could anyone ask that of another woman? That's what boggles my mind...how could you ask someone to risk their health and life for you to have a 5th baby? It's exactly why we most people are against forced birth because pregnancy and birth is not something you should dictate or demand of others. It's why women can have abortions (not everywhere, sadly) even if their partners are opposed to the abortion.

MissBarbary · 12/03/2021 17:49

Where do you draw the line with intervention regrading making babies? Do you oppose to IVF because it’s not that standard way?

Yes, I do actually.

It’s not your place to decide whether thats morally wrong

It's certainly not your place to tell people that they have no right to express a view on the morality of surrogacy.

Nor to use your favourite phrase , is it "any of your business" to tell other posters they cannot campaign against surrogacy. Plenty of other countries have determined it is wrong. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to prevent anyone campaigning for the same position in the UK.

TableFlowerss · 12/03/2021 17:42

@zzizzer

I've lost count of how many times I've said this but it's not about a gift (and it is not always a gift it is a transaction).

It's about the attachment disorder. It's purposefully creating a child and orphaning them from their biological mum. It is the very definition of disgusting.

That’s one way to look at it. Another way to look at it is somebody (a friend/relative) wants to help out someone they care about who can’t carry a baby. They offer to carry the baby and they give the baby to it’s biological parents who would be thrilled that someone would do that.

It’s not your place to decide whether thats morally wrong.

Where do you draw the line with intervention regrading making babies? Do you oppose to IVF because it’s not that standard way?

MissBarbary · 12/03/2021 17:41

@TableFlowerss

*Exactly.Very few things would ever change if TableFlowers' logic were applied*

@MissBarbary

Thankfully you don’t speak for everyone. What you believe to be be disgusting, is the best gift in the world for someone else. No one is forcing or insisting you take part so again, it doesn’t concern you personally - hence none of your business!

The idea that just because one isn't personally affected by an issue makes it none of one's business is nonsense. Does the idea of the concept of wider, societal implications and the status of women have any resonance for you?

Italy, Spain, France, Portugal, Bulgaria and Germanyprohibit surrogacy in all forms.I think Thailand might have moved to that. I'm glad they do and I would support lobbying to make UK law the same.

zzizzer · 12/03/2021 17:38

I've lost count of how many times I've said this but it's not about a gift (and it is not always a gift it is a transaction).

It's about the attachment disorder. It's purposefully creating a child and orphaning them from their biological mum. It is the very definition of disgusting.

TableFlowerss · 12/03/2021 17:31

Exactly.Very few things would ever change if TableFlowers' logic were applied

@MissBarbary

Thankfully you don’t speak for everyone. What you believe to be be disgusting, is the best gift in the world for someone else. No one is forcing or insisting you take part so again, it doesn’t concern you personally - hence none of your business!

TookAPill · 12/03/2021 16:50

Maybe in the obscure Spanish village Hilaria hails from this is customary.

PatchworkElmer · 12/03/2021 16:41

I’m absolutely appalled by this. Like another poster has already said, it astounds me when women who have experienced pregnancy pay another woman to go through it. I had a horrendous pregnancy and the birth wasn’t great either- I couldn’t in good conscience ask another woman to go through those risks for me. Even if all is ‘normal, pregnancy is a risky business! They already have a big family. It’s disgusting to then grow it at the expense of another woman.

I think it’s worse in this case because the inference seems to be they’ve selected a female embryo because they were desperate for a girl.

MissBarbary · 12/03/2021 16:33

@zzizzer

It shouldn't be allowed or legal though, that's the point. (And those two things are not a sign that something is okay!)
Exactly.Very few things would ever change if TableFlowers' logic were applied
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