Non binary confused and sad

RootyT00t

pensivepigeon

I don't think there an issue with your proposal. You are spot on. It's just unpopular on MN

Thank you, @RootyT00t**

Seen many of these threads. If you were arguing the other side but were just floating ideas you'd be welcomed with open arms. Your problem is your thoughts go against their agenda

I'm not particularly gender critical- my problem with PensivePigeon's solution is I couldn't make head nor tail of what she was on about.

I think non-binary is chosen as girls and young women are frightened of growing up. It seems to me that it's a way of avoiding some of the pressures of needing to find a boyfriend . My worry is if they seek to make irreversible changes - being non-binary can be a temporary state .

So, personality then.

Yes.

Yes, if you will. Redefine gender as personality. However, you need to be able to frame it so those used to referring to their gender will adopt this meaning and bridge the refinement of usage with the old usage.

So, personality then.

Thats not really a clear answer

Because gender is diverse, fragmented and varied. It doesn't necessarily correlate with a person's sex. Sorry, it's not clearer but that's the reality of what we have here, now in society. It's a cultural phenomenon unlike biological sex in humans which is pretty clear cut.

Thats not really a clear answer. Can you give and example of a typical male gender and a typical female gender? Does it change based on age?

Could you give me some examples of how the 'female gender' manifests differently from the 'male gender' to help us understand how it isn't based in sexism and stereotypes

It doesn't manifest differently between the sexes. We need to redefine what gender actually means in reality to reflect this.

That's a new low, even for these boards.

Perhaps you could explain? You must be going by some unusual new definition of 'gender' that I haven't encountered yet.

Could you give me some examples of how the 'female gender' manifests differently from the 'male gender' to help us understand how it isn't based in sexism and stereotypes?

I'm always willing to listen.

If all stereotypes fit both women and men, then they're just 'people' stereotypes and nothing to do with sex or gender.

Exactly! Got it in one!

The reason for my stance though is that it allows dialogue and free expression without compromising women's rights. Attempt to silence people and you only further victim rhetoric and mentality.

I think one answer is to acknowledge gender but in doing so steer the discussions of gender towards widening up the existing stereotypes up so every gender expression is seen as appropriate for either sex.

How is this different from getting rid of the stereotypes and gender? If all stereotypes fit both women and men, then they're just 'people' stereotypes and nothing to do with sex or gender.

as feminists we reject gender for many reasons.

Except some feminists, like me, are willing to engage with gender discussions and seek to make gender a more accurate social construct which better reflects the reality of society today whilst upholding the protections and provisions made in law for biological females.

That's a new low, even for these boards.

Do you actually understand that gender is a social construct based on regressive sex role stereotypes? I see nothing wrong at all with Barracker's post. It doesn't all revolve around trans people and what they believe, as feminists we reject gender for many reasons.

I don't know if any of you have children who watch Operation Ouch. I was so happy when they had a new female Dr join the team, but now I discover Dr Ronx identifies as non-binary and goes by they/them. I am running out of role models for my daughter.

They have to work out their sexuality and their gender based on vague and confusing definitions.

They get the definitions from their peer group. Peer groups have the most influence, people outside of the peer group have little influence.
What we think is irrelevant to them.
The best thing we can do is just carry on. Keep creating new groups and meet each challenge as it comes.

And great post Barracker. I agree with you.
Gender is just stereotypes and lies claiming a biological basis. Nothing progressive or empowering or freeing about any of it.

...as nice, middle class young girls we had been brought up to be kind and polite to everyone but that this would actively work against us when defending ourselves from those who would harm us because it would make is hesitate and second-guess ourselves. She was adamant that we did not owe anyone making us uncomfortable any such consideration and encouraged us to actively undo that instinct to 'be kind' and suppress our gut feeling at all costs. Better to be rude and alive than kind and dead.

This is excellent advice

*I don't think there an issue with your proposal. You are spot on. It's just unpopular on MN.

Thank you, @RootyT00t .

I attended a large Zoom webinar today in which all but 2 of the panellists had their pronouns in their chyron. It made me realise that fresh pronoun hell is about to be peer-pressured or 'called out' in all sorts of unexpected settings.

Honestly I feel the analogy to goth culture is spot on - having a 'gender identity' is the current way to be 'different' and 'rebellious'. I was a teen in the late 90s - goth was already a bit old hat, it had moved on to grunge and then it became emo. Teen culture seems to have mutated from emo to gender identity and #bekind. I wonder if the next wave will be a massive reaction to the obsession with gender identity (which is frankly reinforcing conformity to 1950s gender stereotypes) and a throwback to proper punk rebellion? It's a sign of the times that I'm feeling nostalgic for DIY piercings, mohicans and bondage trousers!

You must have missed that entire part in the history of women where the word "woman" got stolen by people who are not of the female sex...

No, I've just grabbed it back!