Non binary confused and sad

I used to be a teacher, and even 10 years ago trans pupils were just not a thing at all.

Many of my previous trans students have mentioned they should deal with their identity or they must get on with transitioning. It seems so pressured. I didn't have any trans students until about 2015

Social media has created a pressure for people to make definitive statements about themselves. The on-line world and communities have to rely on what people say about themselves because the subtleties and perceptions involved in face to face interaction are missing.

On-line you can be whoever you want; most people adopt usernames that are not their 'real' name; and your on-line presence takes on a recognisable shape. Personal lives and 'identities' are mediated via strong visual imagery, usually consciously constructed; by carefully chosen icons, emojis and so on.

Gaming also sets up this sort of dynamic too. You choose an identity and you interact with others on the basis of it.

Don't conflate gender with sex.

there is no causal link between sex and gender

I’m also struggling to understand your point. It would help if you could clarify what you mean by “gender” here.

Are “woman/female” and “man/male” genders and/or sexes, do you think? If there is no link, why do they use the same words?

I don’t think gender stereotypes are necessarily separate from sex though and I think it harms feminism to insist they are.
Some are obviously, women can be engineers or physicists or sports commentators but sometimes sex does matter particularly in terms of roles that need strength, size etc where men will be better suited or roles that need smaller hands, dexterous fingers such as craft work, sewing etc. For me, it’s about recognising that roles that women are traditionally more suited to are equal to those that men are, not inferior as we are often told. So for example in a supermarket women on the till are equal in status and pay to the men in the warehouse. Or in a factory sewing and making clothes in a clothes factory is equally important as making Cars in a car factory.
Child care practitioners (mainly female) are equal to refuse collectors (mainly male) in a local council pay structure.
It’s about valuing women’s roles and what women are good at as much as we value men.

It just stops you identifying it as sexism.

Don't conflate gender with sex. Gender identity, if it is recognised that there is no causal link between sex and gender does not prevent people recognising sexism. It is for people themselves to decide their own gender identity. People just simply are their sex.

Can see sex = cant see sexism.

It doesn't stop sexism. It just stops you identifying it as sexism.

You can state your opinion. Others can tell you if its a load of cobblers though.

I think it is for me to state my aims @RedToothBrush.

It just disappears in a puff of smoke without them.

You don't get it do you? This is my whole aim!

Gender identity is gendered stereotypes and the reinforcement of them.

For you maybe. It doesn't have to be. It is not for me. I am comfortable in my skin. I am female. I am a woman. I am infertile and have had a mastectomy due to cancer treatment. I have opted out of surgical reconstruction. My body reflects me and my history. My roles in life reflect my personality.

My issue with non binary is not necessarily what they seem too be rejecting, but the assumption that the vast majority of other people accept those same things.

                      <span class="italic">There is no causal link between sex and gender.</span>

Gender identity can not exist without gendered stereotypes. It just disappears in a puff of smoke without them.

I spent my 20s trying to run away from things. I hated being female. I hated myself. I think back about the things i said at the time and my thoughts and actions and there is no way i wouldn't be non binary if i was 19 today.

It took me a long time to recognise that you can't hide or run away from yourself. I didn't fit in with others for various reasons, and I never will. I lacked maturity and emotional security. I got older and realised what all the angst about identity was. I still have massive social anxiety (possibly its aspergers but not sure going down the route of trying to get it formally recognised is particularly helpful).

This is exactly the same thing but asks others to participate and enable it.

Its directly related to lack of self confidence, depression and anxiety. Its related to frustrations about gender stereotypes and the way others treat you in a negative way.

Gender identity is gendered stereotypes and the reinforcement of them. Trans identities legitimise gender stereotypes and advocate hormones and surgery to 'corrrect' what is seen as a problem rather than acknowledging the problem is society's stereotypes. Non binary identities try to reject the stereotypes but fails to accept sex is a material reality that can not be avoided and instead tries to create a bubble of avoidance type behaviour around sex. Non-binary identities also legitimise and perpetuate body dysphoria without trying to resolve underlying issues.

Avoidance type behaviour should be identified not enabled.

Material reality is that sex exists and our bodies just are. We can hate them and we can self harm but we ultimately can't change what we are born because srx is real and exists and the problem is stereotypes not sex.

You could be trans and agree with the statement or non binary and agree with the statement or gender fluid and agree with the statement:

                      <span class="italic">There is no causal link between sex and gender.</span>

This is the middle ground.

And you could actually be what transgender people term CIS and still agree with the statement:

                                              <span class="italic">There is no causal link between sex and gender.</span>

There is no causal link between sex and gender.

This is true of society today and would fit in with feminist ideals and also be helpful to many who struggle with their own gender identity. What is wrong with that?

It does seem regressive rather than progressive to me.

@RootyT00t

‘Yes, great to compare human beings being unhappy with their gender and changing it to RACISM. Excellent comparison.’

do you actually read posts or just see what you want to see?

There was no comparison.

Except some feminists, like me, are willing to engage with gender discussions and seek to make gender a more accurate social construct which better reflects the reality of society today

But that’s part of the issue, PensivePigeon. We had a kind of gender thing that reflected modern society. But that’s now disappeared and been taken over by these regressive ideas. That is not because society stopped promoting broader gender ideas.

I think the cause is social media - both indirectly (ideas spreading among teens on Tumblr) and directly (people pushing to narrow gender into these regressive stereotypes we have today).

I find NB very sad too. Yes, sometimes it’s just a fashion choice or a youth thing like Goths, but some of these girls genuinely believe they have something wrong/different about them because they don’t fulfil regressive gender roles or look a certain way (Kardashian, etc). The fact they’ve lost sight of the idea that girls/women can look how they like, do the jobs they like, act the way they like, is utterly tragic.

I wish we could have a pro-women campaign running in schools that underlined that very message.

Also, of course, looking at the definition of NB - we’re all NB, so it makes zero sense anyway.

I’m afraid I think modern tendencies to entirely child led parenting coupled with subliminal sexualisation at an early age has much to answer for. We seem to have (on MN at least) quite a large number of people who are afraid to parent, to impose structures and norms that offer young children a framework and support in their development.

Leaving children to work out for themselves how to sleep, how to be potty trained and how to become an adult comfortable in their own skin is not helping them. Basic child development. They need a firm basis and confidence to explore and grow.

In terms of sexuality, they need positive role models of man and woman. The two are different, neither is better than the other. There are joys and reasons to celebrate either, but society seems to have forgotten that somehow.

In supporting greater freedom for all, there is a risk greater freedom is lost. Girls used to be able to be ‘Tomboys’ and we’re accepted as such. Not an ideal name, but able to live a much more traditionally male life without having to claim they were the wrong sex. Boys preferring more traditionally female activities got a harder time and that is probably what needs addressing.

That's a fairly typical view on these boards.

my problem with PensivePigeon's solution is I couldn't make head nor tail of what she was on about.

My proposal is fairly simple centred around this idea:

                                             <span class="italic">There is no causal link between sex and gender.</span>

I'm not surprised many girls don't want to become women. Womanhood is painted in such a negative light. All the difficulties (cramps, childbirth, harassment,) and none of the joys. Even feminists judge womanhood by male standards. Traditional female roles (aka "regressive" stereotypes) are undervalued while traditional male roles are lauded. With the continual poor me talk of oppression. who wouldn't want to bat for team patriarchy.

There is precious little discussion of women and their strengths throughout history. Lets talk about how women overcame obstacles rather than just the obstacles themselves (eg Mary Somerville). Lets talk about the fun, the joy and the rewards. Lets teach them techniques like the self defense courses mentioned up thread, to deal with life as it is, rather than expect wait for some distant utopia.

Thought experiment: What if these non binary girls are really just heterosexual females who are a bit unpopular in the brutal school social hierarchy and feel like social failures. Calling themselves non binary, is a way of protecting their sense of self and claiming some specialness. However, this preoccupation with sexuality is a joyless, self flagellating, narcissistic fools errand. Lets find a way to offer other, more positive, and fun activities.

I'm really not trying to be rude but I read PensivePigeon's posts and just think I know what each individual word means but when you put them in that order in a sentence.....

To take 2 of the most disparate examples I can think of - Barracker and JJ - no disrespect intended to either- I frequently disagree with what they say but I only have to read them once to work out what they are saying.