Non binary confused and sad

I grew up in the 80/90s and although I was aware of gender it just wasn’t a big deal to me to be a Tomboy. In fact in many ways it was quite cool to go against the “girly girl” stereotype and I had a lot of boyfriends along the way

I never identified completely with the gender stereotypes for girls / women but I never once thought it meant I needed another label. I just somehow knew that I didn’t have to conform, gender was just a made up set of “things” which I could pick and choose from. Yes I like make up and wear my hair long but I also loved big boots, jeans, leather jackets and the androgynous look. I didn’t care that I didn’t fit a tick list and neither did any of my friends care if they did or didn’t. We were too busy with other stuff.

Now I am GC.

I don’t have an issue with someone claiming to be non binary if that’s the way they want to describe themselves but it’s irrelevant to me on a personal level because I totally believe gender doesn’t really exist outside of our cultural definitions. So by saying you are non binary you are the same as me in that we don’t fit out prescribed gender tick box but you want a label and I don’t need a label.

I definitely think a lot of it is about rejection of womanhood. A lot of it is about teenage angst and trying to find a place to fit.

I think gender and sex issues are what eating disorders were in the 90s.

But trans men and some non-binary people aren't women

Hence my question. If a hypothetical 'transman' and I are both adult human females, what do you think 'woman' means for you to believe I'm one, but she is not?

Would hate to be a girl or young woman today. Forced stereotyping doesn’t help anyone & that is what it feels like is being enforced. Gender reinforces nothing good

*possibly! I certainly don't think it's pointless!

Evarish OK. Noted that you do not consider yourself to be a non-binary person (and of course I wouldn't expect you to speak for all non-binary people even if you did).

But based on your understanding as you've put it, can you tell me what you mean when you say "relates themselves as a man"? I'm not being facetious - it's an unusual construction (at least to me). Do you mean "thinks of themself as a man" or "presents themself as a man" or something else?

And when you talk about the "binary genders" of man and woman, I would ask what those genders are but appreciate that is pointlessly a very involved question. Perhaps I can I ask instead in what sense they are binary?

@Barracker What does this have to do with what I said?

What on earth do you think 'woman' means Evarish?

What do you think women are telling you about themselves when they say "I'm a woman"?
If I stand next to a 'transman', both of us adult, human and female, what do you think differentiates us? We're the same sex. There's a word that works for both of us, and for the billions like us. I'm not going to redefine that word which describes both our material states so that there's NO WORD LEFT for adult human females. There are 3.8 billion female people in the world. We're a biological reality and the words female, girl, woman, they are the words for our biological reality.

I can tell you that what I think is that the binary is anyone who solely relates themselves as a man or as a woman, whereas non-binary is anyone who relates themselves as a mixture of those binary genders, neither binary genders, a binary gender as well as something else or any variation thereof.

I am in complete agreement with all you say here.

Evarish A genuine question - what do non-binary people think a binary person is?

I don't understand the sentiment that trans and/or non-binary people, according to many of you, see gender as entirely stereotypes that no one can break out of.

A woman can wear, do, like and express herself however she wants. A woman can be masculine, a woman can have no desire for children, a woman can be the main breadwinner. A woman can use testosterone for decades, shop in the men's section exclusively, use he and him pronouns, refer to himself in whichever fashion and still be a woman (although this has historically been, as far as I know, been an expression of a small group of butch lesbians).

And no trans and/or non-binary people I know will argue against it. If they're women, they're women.

But trans men and some non-binary people aren't women. They aren't 'trying to flee stereotypes', none are so foolish to think that transitioning in any manner (from socially with pronouns to whichever extent) will stop them from being at the receiving end of sexual abuse, people talking over them, being sent dick pics or whatever as it doesn't go away. Especially the belief that it's done because of the belief that 'being a trans man is considered more accepted than being a lesbian' baffles me because even trans men who are exclusively attracted to men will have people pressuring them to 'just be a butch lesbian'.

It's like we live in two completely different worlds, when I see many posts here.

You only care about biological females and not the people Pug is talking about. Got it.

They don't matter

Horrendous?

It's horrendous for women to hear men constantly tell us being female is a particular state of mind, that they have this ladybrain state, that we must submit to their claims to being female, refer to them as 'she', agree never to refer to our actual bodily state of being female as female, agree that we cannot refuse them access to wherever we are, wherever our daughters are, agree that we are privileged over them, and that any dissent we might offer is hate.

My empathy is with actual female people.
Not with any member of the opposite sex who feels aggrieved that I won't validate his questionable views of womanhood, or call him 'she'.

When the subject matter is what makes female people female, I am certain of one thing.
In the scenario where people expect women to pretend being female is something it isn't? Where the demands go to the heart of redefining what WE are, as women?

The aggressors in that scenario are NOT the women saying NO.

There is a link between autistic girls and gender in some ways, but not at the level the campaigns would have us believe.

My beef with the shoehorning of the autism I to every thread and isn't that awful etc etc is that it somehow implies that people with autism (which obviously is being diagnosed better in girls and therefore numbers are 'rising ' somehow means that it's not OK for them to be trans. That somehow their autism means they are prey.

This is absolutely not always the case.

I do agree with you about the struggle to present as NT and perhaps a seeking of finding identify

Pronouns are practically laughed about on here. Gender denied and mocked. Women telling trans people they can do as they like because they don't care, it's THEIR space, we are women. Etc etc

I actually have no personal beef with it as I'm not non binary or trans but some of the things I read, I just think how horrendous for these people to have to see it.

*struggle to persuade them, that should have read!

pensievepigeon I do basically understand what you're driving at - you're trying to reach people who are already mired in gendered ideology and feel you need to use their own terms in order to do so. I understand that wish to build a bridge.

However, at root what you are advocating for is either appeasement or fighting nonsense with more nonsense and hoping that it will collapse into something resembling sense, without any 'gender ideologists' really noticing.

I think that you will find a pretty swift opposition from certain quarters to anything which seeks to differentiate transwomen from people sexed female. I understand that you think it's sensible to discuss sex and gender as two entirely distinct things entirely divorced from one another - and that is a coherent position to take, whether I agree with it or not - but I think you'll be disappointed if you believe that you will persuade a lot of people on the other side of the fence to agree with you even that far.

If you do, I don't think you'll persuade them to agree that there are many, of any, scenarios in which sex must be considered instead of gender (however defined).

I think that may be where you're losing people here.

It does seem terribly sad.

If you chafe under the stereotypical expectations that society lumps around your sex, why identity out of it and kick the ladder away for others? Why not instead widen the bandwidth by proving that it's completely possible to be male or female without perfectly fitting a load of stereotypes.

I don't think permissive potty-training is really what's behind the trend, though...

That’s really sad Pug.

I'm in HE too and it is sad. I know of students, female and identifying as non binary, sexually harassed (one in the male toilets).

Instead of being recognised as a female issue - their peers jump on it as a transphobic attack/abuse. It must be so confusing to have these opinionated males (however they identify) claiming to defend you, saying the older women around you are somehow to blame but knowing on some level this kind of vulnerability and fear they experienced is borne of being female- hence trying to ID away from it.

It's not possible for women to support each other, instead sexual harassment and assault of these young women is diluted into the myriad of LGBTQIA+ issues, on a par with the pain someone feels at not having a pronoun respected. My heart breaks for how lonely they must feel and how they are still just as vulnerable (and still encouraged by their peers to use male toilets, FFS).

My DD (12) is very into identifying as gay - she may or may not be and I don't mind either way of course. She already has a new NB friends and while i do feel there genuinely is a tiny minority of people who have a profound sense of not being one sex or another, I honestly do think most of these kids adopting it as an identity are just using it to say that they don't like gender stereotypes. But I aslo agree with the view this is retrogressive step as it kind of says 'I can exempt myself from The Rules' and changes nothing for anyone else - so I have gently expressed this to DD. I can see NB identity as being attractive to DD and while I think it's harmless and part of a larger movement that I think is ultimately positive, I'd rather she thought these things through. I have told her that if she wants to challenge gender stereotypes, far better to identify as female and be clear that she knows that she can be a woman in whatever way she likes, she doesn't have to be like this or that to be a woman. I hope that has got through to her while she still seems to respect my opinion!