Non binary confused and sad

They don't turn to anyone - that's the problem.

male.

If men do want to cry or talk a out their feelings who do you think they turn to? Their mates or dad? Or female friends and mum?

I think makes perpetuate this attitude. Very sad.

Night.

'We' do not ignore make vulnerability. Patriarchy is afraid of make vulnerability. Patriarchy is not good fir makes either.

"My issue comes with people denying it and calling it nonsense."

It's harmful to assign rules of behaviour to people on the basis of their physical sex. That's where I'd come from.

Goodnight

Odd that we as a society tend to ignore male anxiety and mental health and focus on the vulnerable females.

"Maybe the groups you identified are more likely to feel unease with their identity than others?"

They are. But why?

So much research needs doing. But I bet it doesn't get done because of the fear it will invalidate trans identity.

My issue comes with people denying it and calling it nonsense.

not names it style
names or style

not and it takes testosterone.

and/or takes testosterone.

Gender is widely accepted as a social contruct. So 'made up concept' is not really clear. Gender as it is presented is totally 'made' by society, animals don't express gender.

It's largely fixed in time and place. Look at French blokes 300 years ago, what was considered masculine was very different to now.

The question is, is it an innate part of someone's make up. That's the difference between gender identity and gender expression, as far as I am aware.

This is the problem, for me with making assumptions about 'gender' being something inate, from the inside, rather than simply an external expression.

I think some people are very unhappy with their biological sex and that for me is more the issue. For young trans people it may start with pronouns and clothes but does it end with hormones and surgery? Those are my fears.

It's important, I think, to understand and not just assume that things are not linked if there is evidence they are. Before medicalising a while bunch of people we should explore this scientifically, IMHO.

Maybe the groups you identified are more likely to feel unease with their identity than others?

Speaking for myself here I am not discussing toilets. Though others are free to.

I have not used the word 'exploit' nor, I think, implied it.

I said that there are a whole bunch of things that go together with teenage, pre teen and young adult, females presenting as trans (in 2021, and from about 2015).

Prior to that most trans youth were male. This is what I have heard from the Tavistock's 'whistke blower'.

Sone people who start out identifying as trans might then decide to be non-binary or vice versa.

My sole issue here is that medical procedures might be undertaken by people believing this is right for them, only to regret it later.

Non-binary does sometimes mean the young person binds their breasts or has then removed, and it takes testosterone.

I don't really care what pronouns people choose or names it style of clothes. I personally use name or pronouns that others request.

But fir me, autisn us a real factor. To not take this aspect seriously is to miss something significant. There are other things too - to what I have mentioned, being lesbian, being abused.

If trans identity is an innate gender identity why are so many people with similar experiences also in possession of this inate identity (who happen to be teenage, pre teen or young adult females)?

You make an interesting point about the demographic.

Particularly for female, I would think there's an element of the need to mask making them feel like they 'dont belong'. They may well confuse sexuality and gender.

Where my confusion comes is that as an overwhelming majority on here insist on gender being a made up concept, that seems something unlikely for an autistic youngster to favour.

I'm saying it doesn't do much for autistic young people if they are deemed unable to make their own choices.

And "My beef with the shoehorning of the autism I to every thread and isn't that awful etc etc is that it somehow implies that people with autism (which obviously is being diagnosed better in girls and therefore numbers are 'rising ' somehow means that it's not OK for them to be trans. That somehow their autism means they are prey.

This is absolutely not always the case."

I don't know how you can conclude any if this with the lack of research there is.

"...somehow means that it's not OK for them to be trans."

What you seem to be arguing is it's fine for autistic youth to be trans ... but I am saying not that it is not ok but that maybe there are reasons why this demographic has so much in common.

I know one trans and one non binary.

I'm not convinced their autism caused them to make that decision, but if it was you who said it or whoever did I can see the argument that their search to find their identify may have stemmed from their autism rather than a gender issue.

My annoyance around the topic is that 'trans exploiting autistic teenagers' appears every thread and in cases where the real aim of the thread is making points about toilets etc, I think it's a cheap trick as it then descends into 'you must not care about these poor autistic girls'.

RootyT00t does your knowledge of autism include teenagers, pre teens and early 20s and born female? If so, and not many of them are trans, then I would expect you to draw that conclusion.

How many teenagers, pre teens and early 20s born female who are currently identifying as trans do you know? Because once you start to talk to the parents of these young people you may find that autism, mental health issues, physical health issues etc are very common.

It makes me wonder what is going on but there is very little research into this

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but as someone with a fair bit of knowledge of autism, it's not as clean cut as that.

RootyT00t do you have any evidence about how common autism is for those identifying as trans? Particularly those born female?

"...not at the level the campaigns would have us believe." What campaigns?

I only have anicdotal evidence. The anicdotal evidence I have is that it is very common.

I don't understand the question, transman isn't a word that exists.

and yet you used the plural "trans men" yourself. Does that phrase not exist either?

I won't argue much further on the subject of what does and doesn't really exist though. It skates too close to the truth.

Here's my quote for the day instead:

How many legs does a dog have if you call his tail a leg?
Four.
Saying that a tail is a leg doesn't make it a leg.

~Abraham Lincoln~

Your argument about their sexed body is nonsense. That's not their gender.

@Evarish so what do you call a woman transitioning to be a man?

Evarish Perhaps I've missed the point - and please forgive me if I've wrongly surmised that you are looking to avoid a query on the basis of the lack of a single typed space - but does this help you to understand the question..?

"If a hypothetical 'trans man' and I are both adult human females, what do you think 'woman' means for you to believe I'm one, but she is not?"

But trans men and some non-binary people aren't women. Then what is a transman if not a woman?

The use of "non-binary" baffles me as well. If a person says "I don't identify as female or male and am non binary" then what? Notwithstanding the person's thoughts and feelings they will still have a female or male sexed body with all that goes with it in the world today.

Thoughts don't change the way others view one and how one is treated, based solely on the presence of a sexed body. It doesn't matter how the body is dressed, the haircut, presence or not of makeup and nail varnish, others look and know they are looking at a woman or a man and act accordingly.

Because of gender stereotypes women are treated as "other", with suspicion and as second class citizens wholly because of our physical bodies and presence in the world. Insisting on gendered anything only cements the denigration of women merely for existing.

Gender denied and mocked

Best thing to do with it.