Teenage girls and public space/facilities : an update

This is so interesting. DD is just entering pre-teens and got a skateboard for Christmas. She was excited to go to the local skate park and she tried to persevere, bless her, but the double whammy of just starting out and a bunch of 17 year olds smoking and drinking there was too much

Great work .

Marking my place. Female unfriendly public spaces are a bug bear of mine.

I'm so l pleased to see this OP. I've been on your website and followed you on twitter.

As a mother of 2 girls I have had my experience of fighting with their primary school over the disparity between girls/boys sports and the domination of the playground and sports cage by the boys. Now older teens I have seen their world shrink as the world grows for teenage boys.

We have commonland near us which has been a good golf for almost 100 years. The space has been reclaimed by the people during lockdown and I have mused how that it ought to be given back to the people to use. But I realise its been so well used by all - families, older people, lone females, teenage girls, dog walkers - because of the feeling of safety of many people around, which won't be the case post-covid when adults have other places to exercise and things filling their time. Then, as before, the only people who will use it are the groups of teenage boys who periodically start small fires. So, as well as spaces being designed for girls, they also need to be in locations which help foster a sense of safety.

This is only slightly related but I think demonstrated how little some men understand how easily intimidated females are by males. Several years ago my train was delayed and got into the station when there were fewer people around, although it s only around 6.30pm. As I approached the multi storey car park there s no one else around but there were a group of males, at least 5 of them, using the car park to skate in and gather. I tried to go in a few times but started to panic. There wno way to get to my car without me walking towards them. I eventually went to the station staff and a man accompanied me but on the way to my car he asked me 'did they say something to you?' And I realised he didn't understand that females can be scared by the presence of males, without them having to have said or done something threatening.

Finally, I remember seeing on Twitter a park that had been designed by girls. I thought it was in Barcelona but I can't find it now. It looked very different to a regular park. I guess no-ones asked them before what they want.

Fantastic initiative!

Years ago a friend who was a Community Youth Worker faced the problem that every single sports/leisure activity she organised was taken over by boys who made the girls feel unwelcome. So she organised parallel, identical activities specifically for girls. The boys complained about being excluded and she was forced to include them - even though they already had the same activities available at a different time.

Then she had a brainwave and started a "No Good at Football Club" open to everyone. None of the boys wanted to be associated with it so they were able to get on and do whatever activities the girls were interested in - which included some of them being pretty good at football.

Ridiculous to have to have to do anything like that but the girls knew what it was all about and liked that they were not only able to do what they wanted in peace but were secretly taking the mickey out of the boys at the same time

Really inspiring thread, I got a lot from the OP and PPs. Am moved to re-address the playground space issue with our school again (I have complained that boys chose the activities and got the lion’s share of space, they shrugged shoulders). Will keep an eye on your charity and the book too.

Sorry I missed your reply to me OP. I'll send a message to the website tomorrow.

There has been evidence of girls doing better and boys worse out of lockdown, in terms of fitness. Because girls have benefitted from time at home to do online workouts and dance things, whereas boys have lost team sports.

That may sound like it supports the 'girls don't want to go outside anyway' narrative but, when you're only allowed out once a day (and may want to use that to walk and talk with a friend), perhaps it lends stronger support to the 'there isn't anything interesting or useful outside for girls, it's all football pitches' and 'actually girls do enjoy exercise, when given the opportunity to do a kind they like' argument.

Thinking about it, I saw a lot of exercise classes moving into a nearby park last summer. Martial arts for kids, a group of post-retirement-aged ladies doing yoga, plus the usual military fitness groups (mostly 30-40-something women) but no groups of teenage girls, or 20-somethings. I think there's a lot of self-consciousness at that age, that evaporates later.

This is so interesting! Is there any evidence about a shift in usage of public space amongst girls during lockdown? As boys are not allowed to gather in big groups (not saying they don't), and girls have no option but to get outside to parks if they want to meet a friend, etc?

Really interesting OP, thanks.

The thing that's always struck me about skate parks is that a lot of girls and also younger children might like to use them, with scooters and roller-skates as well as skateboards but, given they're in use by teenage boys with skateboards and BMXs all day, on any suitable day, when does anyone else get a chance to have a go, or to learn and practice?

If you are already a competent skater and a confident person, then sure you can plunge in and try to 'hold your own' with the boys. But how do you become competent?

Last summer I was out with my early-rising child at 7-8am and we walked past the local skate park. Two or three teenage girls were practising. I thought 'ah, that's how they do it, they fit themselves into the margins, around the boys and go at times when nobody else is there.

The whole question of 'what would you get if you ask teenage girls' is fascinating. It's so easy and so stupid to follow the line of 'we don't see girls trying to use these facilities, they're all at home, in the gym or at the shops, that's what they want to do, therefore they're not interested in outdoor sport', without ever considering what sorts of sports and activities girls would do if the facilities were made available.

I used to like playing tennis with friends as a tween. I think the fact you could book a court for a fixed time and everyone knew and respected that system, worked. It was simple and stress free.

I think this is an amazing campaign!

I wanted to highlight that there also boys who don’t fit into stereotypes around male attributes who don’t feel comfortable in these spaces either.

I can see my dn aged 9 who is not destined to be an alpha male already feels uncomfortable.

Not sure what can be done about that but definitely an issue.

Another question prompted by earlier posters: why is there so often a core assumption that whatever the (shifting, in the big picture) interests of male youths are, these should be the aspirational interests of female youths? "Girls can skateboard too!": of course, but is there an underlying assumption that skateboarding (being stereotypically a masculine interest) is inherently more worthwhile than gymnastics equipment (being stereotypically feminine)?
I think there should certainly be an underlying assumption that skateboarding is worthwhile so they should look at why girls don’t skate. They should also provide options for things girls already do, but it’s like University. There are and should be programs to encourage girls into maths because it’s worthwhile. Of course they should still be supported to do nursing or something else much more typically female biased. (I did maths, so I naturally think this one is important!)

Just wanted to add my wholehearted support for your Initiative.
You might be interested in the way girls play and use space in single sex schools where the boys are not an issue.
I’ve recently been pleased to see that the 12-14 year olds have started up a football game at lunchtime (or had before lockdown). After all there are no boys to tell them they are not allowed!
Good luck.

The accessibility of riding I think depends very much on where you are. For example, there's a riding school near me that specifically has programmes with local schools to enable kids from disadvantaged backgrounds to have lessons, and that has a formalised system to earn "lesson tokens" for helping at the yard. They also run a Pony Club branch targeted at children that don't have their own ponies. In general, this area is also comparatively cheap for livery prices. Many of the horse owners I know have decidedly ordinary jobs, e.g. cleaner, waitress, dog walker, receptionist. Compared to other countries I've lived, riding is far more accessible here, which I think is wonderful! There are very few boys/men, although I do know some.

I have to say I've not usually been worried about walking anywhere alone, as a child or an adult. If I weren't too lazy to run, I would happily run alone on forest trails. But on horseback, I do worry about the scrambler bikes, which appear to be ridden exclusively by teenage boys/young men. I have yet to meet one that is not inconsiderate and entitled, and I keep my eyes open for escape routes if I hear one. We had a big problem near the riding school with boys on scrambler bikes deliberately scaring horses, and actually targeting groups of ponies on lead reins with small children on them! There's always signs up in the forests, asking people to call the police if we see people on scrambler bikes or ATVs.

From childhood, I do recall the schoolyard being taken over by the boys playing football, and making it clear that girls weren't welcome in the game. The wooden fort/castle thing on the playground was used by girls and boys, but sometimes, groups of older boys would take over, scare the younger kids away, and leave cans and other litter all over the place. Nothing was done by any adults, that I recall.

There was one incident, however, when boys from our class built a treehouse and wouldn't let the girls in it...the girls' response was to build a lean-to at the base of the tree, and refuse to let the boys back down. They didn't like that. This siege lasted a while (but then we had to go home for lunch).

*discussion haha

Thanks for this. Really good initiative, really good duavussion here. Will follow on social media too.

It's a brilliant report, @makespaceforgirls Thank you so much for your eloquence and research!

@persistentwoman I politely spoke to a bloke on one of our rural green lanes out for antisocial (and possibly illegal) behaviour the other day. I subsequently saw on our village FB page that he was accusing me of being threatening and intimidating, because I was on a horse. A bunch of other men had also piled on, agreeing with the original man that women on horses were intimidating. I commented in as dignified a way as I could that a young man who has been asked to moderate his speed and behaviour is not being intimidated by a middle aged woman with 2 children on ponies, but being asked by a woman to stop, and he doesn’t like that.

As a horse rider and walker I have often been subjected to the ‘mind your back’ yell from cyclists. I had assumed this was because cyclists are rude, but now I come to think of it, I’ve never had this from female cyclists, indeed I cannot recall seeing many female mountain bikers in all the time I’ve been out on my horse on well-used routes. And I have never come across a female motocross biker or 4x4-er, and these are some of the most entitled, damaging and aggressive users of our local byways.

That's really interesting backinthebox. Where I live there's a real tension developing between people in our heavily used countryside (lockdown related) I often encounter women and girls on horses - who are usually cautious and careful as they navigate their way along sometimes crowded forest tracks, thanking people for putting dogs on leads etc. In contrast many of the predominantly male cyclists swerve their way through groups of people - sometimes with thanks but often with shouts of "mind your backs" etc. The dog walk becomes an interesting exercise in observing stereotypical sex based behaviour.