Does anyone ever have a "are we the baddies"* moment?

@Helleofabore Yes, I agree with everyone having their own boundaries. It's a really difficult issue, and for me, I think (practical implications aside) that accepting fully-transitioned people into single-sex spaces is a fair compromise between the risk to women and compassion for the very rare transsexuals (and one which, as GC feminists often point out, was a fairy harmonious modus vivendi for decades until the whole thing went bananas), but I also think women would be well within their rights to object.

I was actually listening to Buck Angel on Trggernometry yesterday who was saying he still has to visit the gynaecologist etc., and was pondering that it might make many women extremely uncomfortable to have such a convincing bearded trans man on a ward if he had to have some kind of specialist treatment.

I agree, we should remain aware of not blurring the boundaries into statements that can come across as predjudicial. However, everyone has their own bottem line, whether its male bodied people in womens sports or MBP in womens private/safe spaces. One of my bugbears though is language - I really resent having constraints on using language which has been used to define one half of the human species for millennia because a few people may feel upset. There have been statements on here which I have had difficulty with on occasion, including an occasional pile on when males appear to be trying to be allies. I realise some of these people are prize bullshitters but I dont think they all are and I dont have a problem with genuine decent men being allies of feminists., though I dont think the conversation should then be all about them either.

If there is one woman who does not consent and is excluded by including a male person into a female only space regardless of degree of modifications - then my answer has to be no too.

Which is why there is so often so much disagreement among gc women, or women who are concerned about gender ideology.

The only thing that should be sacrosanct, I think, is freedom to discuss one's rights without fear of being threatened. The rest of it - we need to talk.

Long live diversity of opinion.

I do think that the insistence that people who have committed to living as the opposite gender and taken extraordinary medical steps to do so should continue to use the bathroom that corresponds with their biological sex is going too far.

It is good to establish your own boundaries as long as you realise that others who disagree with you have just as much right to their boundaries.

And that if there are vulnerable women who need, or even want, to have facilities without a male who has had surgical modifications to their body that is still male, you should not take away their rights to have those spaces.

Because if a male says they need them, why exactly does their voice have priority over a female who says they need them?

Everyone should always engage their brain on these topics. I've said before, this is not a religion with a creed. You don't have to sign up to a list of tenets. Own it for the things you have actually thought about yourself, because otherwise, you really aren't any different from the clapping seals on Twitter excusing threats.
And obviously, never excuse or make threats. No brainer, that one.

A sensible response @QuimReaper and one I echo. I am very tolerant of people's difference and I work hard to remember my opposition is not to difference, but to specific issues surrounding single sex spaces, protection of children, and safeguarding of the vulnerable.

I have had to have a break and give my head a wobble on a couple of occasions to stay the right side of what I consider acceptable.

*Yes, I do need to question and re-evaluate.
Especially when some things that are said echo intolerance of homosexuality.

But questioning and re-evaluating is a healthy and necessary thing to do.

And I do think some people on these boards can occasionally be transphobic and go too far sometimes, probably including myself.

I'm uncomfortable with that so I will keep an eye out for it.*

Thanks for posting this @Siblingquandary, I feel similarly. I do try and keep a watchful eye on where I think the line of transphobia and intolerance is. For instance, the GC line we often see is 'wear what you like, call yourself what you like, if you're an adult then go right ahead, just don't try and endanger women's rights and safety'. Refusal to use chosen names and pronouns, which I see a lot, seems to me to contradict that, even though I understand the reasons for it. I've decided not to partake in that.

I also tend to think that there's no problem, in principle, with socially treating fully surgically-transitioned trans women as women for most purposes. I realise that opens an ethical and practical can of worms, but I do think that the insistence that people who have committed to living as the opposite gender and taken extraordinary medical steps to do so should continue to use the bathroom that corresponds with their biological sex is going too far.

So no, overall, I don't think we're the baddies, but I try and remain conscious of not being swept up into rhetorical positions I don't actually agree with.

Of course I have those moments. I think it's healthy to second guess your opinions too.

But then I remember gender ideology requires mutilating and sterilising gay and / or autistic children. And that women getting raped is considered an acceptable price to pay to validate gender ideology.

I'll be able to look my daughter in the eye when she asks me what i did about this. That's what I measure myself against.

Does anyone ever have a - are we the baddies moment?

Just surfing the top threads here..... a paper presented on holding a knife to a non compliant woman's throat and demanding to know if she's scared and/or turned on.... a struck off dr in court regarding supply of drugs to children while getting around a court order intended to protect children.... a woman attacked with a knife at Hyde Park Corner possibly because of wearing an offensive t shirt.... an article written by a woman sexually assaulted, harassed and intimidated by a TW she had been locked into prison with.....

No.

That's really not something I get confused about.

Does anyone ever have a - are we the baddies moment?

No.

Does anyone ever have a "are we the baddies" moment?*

No.

I’ve asked myself this many times. I talk to a friend about it a lot and he also questions it.

But I just always come to the conclusion it’s wrong in so, so many ways.

The only way that you can go along with the trans philosophy is to woefully ignore the truth - on a fundamental level.

It just isn’t true, and it’s incredibly damaging.

On the other hand, I’m so proud of the women of TERF island for standing up to this

ya'll just wanna try and displace your own stuff onto me and it's pointless.

I'm sure it is pointless. After all, when you want something so bad it's hard to see reason eh? Those mean women who won't shut up and simply allow men to remove their rights and safeguards. And hitting that twitter block button allows you to remain in that echo chamber of validation. Always such a shock for people when they realise that the people in the real world are not in agreement with the echo chamber. Mumsnet doesn't have a block button btw, so not so easy to create that echo chamber for yourself here. obviously another option is to flounce though.

Aw, pissed away the chutzpah impression by reverting to a bog standard stats pulled out of your arse line. Nul points for that. And the 'I'm going to block you!' handwave? Wrong forum. Can't do that here. You own what you say and you have to read the responses.

Eresh, do watch it. Jamie is a masterclass in how to use links that look sciencey at the bottom of the screen that you know viewers won't read, but you can give a summary of what you think they say and claim you've provided proof of your ideas. Very much of the 'Bullshit with authority and you can convince' school.

I mean, it's a bit like watching someone who firmly believes human physiology is governed by balancing the humours, and part of me feels a lot of pity for Jamie, given that they are still suffering and having to go through more surgery to correct the cosmetic botch down below, and that at one point, it seemed like it would have been possible for Jamie to be a perfectly happy lesbian. Feminism is for Jamie as much as any of us.

But then I remember Jamie has a sweet little set up as an influencer of other young lesbians who are uncomfortable in their body and dealing with a homophobic culture and that Jamie decided to go all in with the homophobia and try and influence others to follow them, making it all look poppy and cheery and all the usual lies.

If you say we need to research every sport to check that its fair that TW participate

It isn’t necessary.

Any sport split by sex can continue to be split by sex.

I don't think a yellow chair would be v relaxing personally. Won't it show up stains? And it looks suspiciously polyester. What is the consensus, is it man made it natural fibres? I cba clicking to watch vid.

But, I must say, Jamie, I've always liked the chair.

Now you've made me consider watching it to see the chair!

I’d recommend using it then and hide all the inconvenient truths that get posted here. Must make threads very short but, hey ho!, block buttons create your very own echo chamber! Must make it hard to operate in the real world where you cannot block reality.

Or are you conflating MN with another social media platform. You know you are not on twitter, right?

How about you post the paragraph above on your Twitter account? Or even extend it by “I think the rape and death threats on JKR are reprehensible”.

Quite.

I mean hell, if you say we need better prison assessments so that Karen Whites and Tara Hudsons never happen again, I'll gladly agree. If you say we need to research every sport to check that its fair that TW participate, I'll be standing with you. If you tell me we need to assess like mad before we give PBs to kid, I'll be there.

Just to let you know, SecretTransTwitterEngineer, it's not about what you personally think is acceptable or otherwise, as what women do or say in support of their own rights does not depend on your personal approval. We don't expect your support. Just like TRAs don't run their political demands by me before they lobby Parliament.

The research is pretty unquestionable

No, it really isn't.

To be more specific, NOT doing this puts trans women just as real as others in danger.

Can we please see the statistics on this? And official crime statistics, not acecdotal evidence. Because, we see this posted all the time but never with a link to verify it.

I don’t doubt that males who identify as women feel unsafe. However, your post then crosses into misogyny territory because you put the onus on women to keep those males safe. Women are not human shields for unsafe males.

So, tell us again why any female should give over their need for safety, privacy and dignity for a male based on what that male wants?

And what number is good for you for the collateral damage of harm to women (females if you need me to be specific, we have had many posters try the ‘but they are women too’) . I’d say n+1 from your post.

There is a great petition by some transwomen for third spaces. How about you look that up and get campaigning for it rather than implying women are the baddies for wanting spaces away from all males.

Which other males should come into the female toilets to be safe? Gay males? elderly males? males who are very short?