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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Does anyone ever have a "are we the baddies"* moment?

662 replies

Menstrualcycledisplayteam · 27/02/2021 21:39

  • it's a Mitchell & Webb sketch, probably on Youtube.

I'm a bit disheartened this week, if I'm honest. I sometimes feel like this is a fight that we're just not going to win. Two main things recently, one personal, one geo-political I suppose.

On the geo-political level, I look across the Pond to the US, where the only people who are saying the same things as us are frigging Rand Paul and Marjorie Taylor Greene, neither of which are people that I associate my politics as being anywhere close to. There is just no bloody way that the Left, my home, will align with us now, given who our "allies" are in the States. They just can't, even those that agree with us will never position themselves as having the same concerns as Marjorie Q-Anon Parkland Taylor Bloody Greene.

The second is personal. I work for a large global organisation in a senior role. We had our Global Leadership "Away Day" a few weeks ago (on Teams, of course) and there was a presentation from some US colleagues on LGBTQ+, being able to bring your whole self to work, that kind of thing, from two gay colleagues, one lesbian one gay. So far, so good - absolutely the right thing for my organisation to be doing. Then they got onto pronouns and how everyone should start every meeting asking what pronouns attendees want to have used and encouraging everyone to put them in our email sign-offs. I'm never going to do that, but I can already see it happening around the organisation (particularly the US, but some of the easily led/want to be noticed over here will soon follow suit).

My husband won't listen to me talk about this sort of stuff anymore - he agrees with me, but says that it is basically like someone saying they "don't agree with all that Black Lives Matter stuff". My best friend works with young people and whilst I've tried to approach it with her very gently, including all of the stats about single sex spaces and how women and children's safety is negatively affected as a result, her reaction is that she gets all of that but she works with children every day who are tortured by their own bodies.

I know that our concerns are justified, I know that women's safety/opportunities are going to be negatively affected but - if I'm completely honest with myself - I just can't see how we're going to stop it. Julie Bindel has a tweet pinned to her feed which is basically that the misogyny at the moment is like a tidal wave and that's how it feels.

I'm not sure why I'm writing this really - certainly not to bring anyone down but there's no-one I can speak to about this in real life. How do you even go about discussing these things when, in my work at least, it would probably get me fired and everyone around me in my personal life has either bought into the nonsense hook line and sinker, or just doesn't want to hear it?

OP posts:
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Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/07/2021 20:21

It's all on the same page of thought

No, it isn't. Hope that clears things up!

FloralBunting · 27/07/2021 20:20

Fundamental misunderstanding of what the feminist position is, yet again. It is T thinking that blocks men and women into 'traditional roles', and if they don't fit them, lies and suggests there is a problem with the people, not the boxes.

This 'far right' canard is bloody laughable when the T movement is completely based on traditional stereotypes and relies on a whole capitalist commercial set up to promote and sell the lies.

And beyond shite when so many of us are entirely 'non traditional' when it comes to appearance, attitude or role. Jesus, is this seriously the best you can do?

Megasausagehead · 27/07/2021 20:19

Now that does make me laugh, many GC are LGB FFS

Mockolate · 27/07/2021 20:10

I also think people should ask themselves (that's not a literal order to go away and think before anyone reads it as such) just a musing - more along the lines it's the far right who don't agree with LGB, or the T either.
Traditional family set up, as in traditional man and wife marriage, with maybe 2.4 children, (so frown on LGB) and men and women to fit into conservative boxes of what a man should look like and behave and what a woman should look like and behave (so frown on the T as they're not behaving "like they should" )
So yes, it is on the far right "baddies" side if anyone wonders where I was going with this post.
It's all on the same page of thought, even if some are more extreme versions than others.

FloralBunting · 27/07/2021 20:10

No, they're not. Nothing in equal marriage prevents heterosexuals being able to marry. No one being openly LGB coerces heterosexual people to change the meaning of heterosexuality. Accepting LGB rights never involved lies and medical interventions on children and young people to stop them developing.

Megasausagehead · 27/07/2021 20:07

IS OVERWHELMING

Megasausagehead · 27/07/2021 20:06

There wasn't any evidence that gay men as a class were a risk to anyone. It was based on made up nonsense.

Whereas the sheer weight of evidence that men of all types, including transwomen, are a risk to women.

CardinalLolzy · 27/07/2021 20:02

People then saying that tangible things were taken away from straight people by gay people were incorrect.

People now saying that tangible things - rights, spaces, safeguarding, etc - are being taken away from people are not incorrect.

Gay people did not demand that a woman's health provider call her bigoted due to wanting a same-sex breast examiner.

Different.

Mockolate · 27/07/2021 19:55

@BlueberryCheezecake

History will look back on you in the same way it looks back on people who fearmongered about the gays and opposed LGB equality.

@redapplewreath

I'm LGB. I fought against section 28. This is utter bollocks. It is not the same. Gay rights wanted to take nothing from anyone else.

How is it utter bollocks and not the same?
It's completely the same argument, if you fought against section 28 , surely you must see that a little bit?
You say "gay right wanted to take nothing from anyone else"
Can you not see or are you not aware that the right wing argument towards gay rights people WERE saying things like they took away rights from others?
Some still will hold those views.
These aren't my views by the way but some definitely do think that gay rights
eg marriage - takes away the "proper" meaning of marriage Hmm as in man and woman, makes a mockery of etc
Also not wanting children to learn about being gay in schools because they fear that it will be a social contagion and if they know about it or their friends are that means they will want to as well Hmm

You really don't see ANY parallels there?
They're the exact same arguments used against trans people on this board.

MsMarvellous · 27/07/2021 19:06

@Waitwhat23

What is a pirates favourite letter?

Arrrrrrr?

No. You would think it would be arrr, but 'it's the C

Grin
Helleofabore · 27/07/2021 19:00

Mmmmm! Gin not rum!!! Another good suggestion for a substitution…

ArabellaScott · 27/07/2021 18:41

'fifty non-men on a dead-named-chestfeeder's-net
yo ho ho and a bottle of Gin'

CardinalLolzy · 27/07/2021 18:40

The pipe bomb, rape threats etc etc are the equivalent of choosing skulls as your uniform, in my opinion. In case that wasn't clear!
Or literally choosing blue and pink for a flag then claiming the other side want to keep people boxed in gender stereotypes...

Megasausagehead · 27/07/2021 18:39

www.google.com/amp/s/historynavigator.org/2019/01/27/aethelflaed-the-heroine-of-mercia/amp/

Pirates are not always the baddies.

Nor do we need to accept nonsense labels from moral reprobates

JauntyFeministPirate · 27/07/2021 18:34

Shiver me timbers!

Women matter, and need their rights to participate in all spheres of society, from mundane things like toilets and access to healthcare, to the opportunity to enjoy sport on a fair playing field, and safety if they are in prison! Children should protected from irreversible medical and surgical intervention based on sexist stereotypes and adolescent insecurities. LGB people shouldn't be harrassed and bullied.

Cast me as the baddie if ye will, but my conscience is cleaarrrrr!

(Yes, the goading was calling us Nazis, but given that the rest of the post was nasty lies too, I think some feminist pirates will be a much more wholesome response that redundant 'I'm not a Nazi' defenses. I'm a feminist. Again - my conscience is clear against the accusations of those who make threats a mark of righteousness. Avast ye!)

Megasausagehead · 27/07/2021 18:33

OK, I watched it.

The important distinction is that GC women are not choosing a skull as their battle symbol.

It is being IMPOSED , like the word cis and all of the fake shot that comes with it. By the true baddies.

CardinalLolzy · 27/07/2021 18:28

I do urge everyone to watch the sketch referenced in the OP

Waitwhat23 · 27/07/2021 18:27

Just remembered my favourite pirate joke.

Why are pirates called pirates?
They just arrrrrr!

Megasausagehead · 27/07/2021 18:23

I quite like my hat

Does anyone ever have a "are we the baddies"* moment?
RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 27/07/2021 18:19

Alas i fear its true…😩

Aggghhhh and hoist the mainbrace and wheres the rum….why is it always the rum?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 27/07/2021 18:17
Grin
Triphazards · 27/07/2021 18:14

There's a skull inside my hat.

Cattenberg · 27/07/2021 18:03

It’s normal to question your views when people are lining up on Twitter to call gender critical feminists evil, prejudiced, hate-filled Nazis.

But recently, I’ve started to tentatively share my views with family and friends. What I’ve found is that most of them had no idea that males are competing in women’s professional sports, or that convicted rapists are occasionally being placed in women’s prisons, or that Stonewall is trying to remove sex-based exemptions from the Equality Act.

So far, not one person has disagreed with me, even the male friend who used to work for a gay rights charity, and who has also worked as a support worker for a trans service user.

The first my parents had heard of the issue was only a few weeks ago, during the Jeremy Vine radio show. They were shocked by the stance of the trans activists they listened to, and strongly disagreed with many of their views.

CharlieParley · 27/07/2021 17:53

No. Never. If I met you in real life, I would happily tell you all the experiences I have had since waking up to the political implications of the doctrine of gender identity. I don't think you'd be left in any doubt about who the baddies are in this debate.

I do understand why you feel uncomfortable that people you disagree with on other issues agree with you on this one. So, take any other issue that's dear to your heart Menstrualcycledisplayteam and play this through.

Let's imagine people who you know have lost everything in the latest flooding disaster. Others in your friends' neighbourhood have died. The only school nursery in town is filled with mud and debris. Without massive help from a veritable volunteer army, the town's little ones (who have already suffered a delay in their social development because of Covid) won't have a nursery until next year.

You are asked to coordinate the volunteers and liase with the deputy head responsible for the nursery department. The deputy head happens to be a vocal trans rights campaigner.

Will either of you have abandoned your principles by putting aside your differences and working together for the sake of the children? Should the deputy head be vilified for working alongside you? Will you be cast out of the women's rights movement for finding a common cause with a trans rights campaigner?

I think if it's perfectly acceptable to share an opinion on one issue with someone whose opinion you oppose on another, on anything from disaster relief to animal protection to literacy to renewables to palliative care, the same holds true here.

No matter how right wing or socially conservative a woman might be, she too is subject to the misogyny and discrimination a left-wing woman experiences on the basis of her sex. I don't have to agree with either woman on absolutely everything before I can stand alongside them in this fight. We just have to agree to campaign for or against the same thing. And once we've done that, we can go back to disagreeing about everything else.

But maybe we do so with a little more understanding.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 27/07/2021 17:48

Who was broadcasting fantasies about holding knives to women's throats, terrorising them and making them scream for mercy? Be fair, he asked if they were turned on or scared - he was catering for all kinds of response!

Picture this: I hold a knife to your throat and spit my transness into your ear. Does that turn you on? Are you scared? I sure fucking hope so.”

Apparently that is an acceptable thing to publish in a respectable university under the banner of Gender Studies.

And yet we are the baddies... and the pirates!