Does anyone ever have a "are we the baddies"* moment?

I do every so often - ie I question my stance - it's something I try and do anyway by making myself play devil's advocate with different positions that I don't naturally have. I have quite rigid thinking sometimes so I find it helpful.

In questioning like this, I often try and discuss with people putting forward the opposite point of view on here. There have been quite a lot, and the replies, lack of replies, and willful misinterpretations of what's being asked (conflating sex and gender when 'convenient' for sleight of hand arguments) have basically cemented my position - I'm satisfied there's not some 'of course!' aspect I've so far missed.

That's not to say I don't learn something from those (particularly those living it) who do engage, and I try and keep open-minded.

I will never not believe, though, that women as a class are oppressed because of their sex. There would have to be a hell of a lot of evidence coming to light to make me change my mind on that!

No

he agrees with me, but says that it is basically like someone saying they "don't agree with all that Black Lives Matter stuff"

Then he doesn't agree with you, OP, because he doesn't understand you. He's conflating sexist, homophobic trans ideologues with the good guys, which doesn't hold water. To take his rather clumsy analogy, the correct version would be you saying you "don't agree with all that British National Party stuff".

As to your question: I ask myself if we are the baddies all the time. I have asked myself that for years. (I also ask myself that on other issues, too.) And so far, the answer has been that christ, no, we are not the bloody baddies, we are the resistance.

I think it is essential to question one's beliefs all the time, lest they become merely dogma. But I keep on coming to the same conclusions, so I will continue to fight for women's rights.

I question myself all the time to make sure I'm not slipping into an unreal echo chamber. I see articles that I agree with attract comments that I consider abhorrent and I take that as a warning to be careful where I place my support.

I acknowledge that at times I will agree with a "baddie" that a specific situation is wrong. But I also know we do not agree on the reasons WHY it's wrong, nor on how it should be fixed, so to see them as allies would be deeply mistaken.

I make sure I focus on the fundamentals so I can always articulate (if only to myself) why I believe what I do.

Do you know what gaslighting is?

Its making you question yourself when you know something to be true.

Do you think that you can change sex? If you do, then how do humans reproduce?
Is it possible to explain Gender Identity without refering to Gender Stereotypes and clothes?

So are you the baddies? Or are you being gaslight?

Lila Perry made my late partner finally understand the issue. He looked at me in horror.

Hell yes. I'm a natural ally, always supported trans people and trans rights and would probably have been parroting TWAW. I didn't understand it when I heard there was controversy, went to have a look expecting to find bigotry from the usual sorts and instead found a lot of misogyny from TRAs.

I just keep in mind that even though I don't deny anybody's existence, I don't want anyone to die, I will call people whatever name they want and will use their chosen pronouns (to the best of my ability I've not met anybody who uses any unusual ones), I am according to some a hateful bigot who wants trans people wiped out while the people who send death and rape threats are apparently the good guys...

I did once. A few years ago. I tried really hard to see it from their point of view. But the lack of logic always stops me. It's like 1984 when he's holding 4 fingers and Winston has to say he sees 5. I can't do it, I just can't. I could be forced to say it but in my head I really can't believe it. That's how I feel when people say a person with a penis can be a woman because they say so. When judges force women to refer to their male attackers as female in court. When crimes are recorded as being committed by women when it's men doing it. I just can't. It's wrong. It feels wrong because it is wrong and my gut has never let me down yet.

I wasn't a tra but initially did support the movement. I read a lot and I don't take much at face value
I read chat groups of transwomen and watched people like Lila Perry demand to be allowed into the girls changing room whilst wearing a short, grey skirt with a semi erection swinging freely under the skirt. I watched and though am I the only person seeing what this really is?
You don't have to do much reading before you become very cynical and disturbed

And nobody I know overthinks it

It’s just a straight no

Nope never. I am a young bigot

I know bigots from all age groups.

Not one not one can even believe this madness

Teens I know mock it

My age mock it

Sometimes. But it passes.

Yep, good one:

But anyway, these kinds of questions do quite possibly have an element of subjectivity to them, so that neither side is exactly "correct". So it could be, "What do you value more?" "Fairness for women in sports, or inclusivity and affirmation for trans-women?".

If someone just personally thinks that it's more important to affirm the gender of trans-women, and that takes higher priority...

That doesn't make the GC side the "baddies", but it would make it harder to fight back against what has pretty much become the mainstream left-wing.

For myself, I don't really question my position on this... it's more like, "You want to put biological male rapists in a female prison?", "Have you lost your fucking mind!?".

*meaningful transition

It's good to have doubts. For me I have some red lines: medicalising gender in young people, women's sports, refuges, prisons etc.

Pronouns are still a tricky one for me, at first glance they seem quite benign. However because it can result in rape victims having to call male perpetrators 'she', I think you should lose all right to preferred pronouns once you have committed a violent or sexual crime. Same goes for women's toilets etc.

Sports is always going to be unfair if the person has gone through male puberty.

If some has undergone a meaningful and wishes to be called she I will do so, but as a courtesy, not as compelled speech.

The word woman should never be eroded in law or policy by reducing us to body parts 'uterus havers'.

We're the silent majority - it's an "easier" lifestyle. But we'll fight when we're cornered.

No never. I am so obviously on the side of women, girls and reality. But then I don't spend my life agonising over what random people think of me. I know I'm right. Also, it kind of irritates me, the tendancy of women to try and placate and worry if people like them. Anyone on the side of medically transing children and removing the word " woman" from public life can kiss my fat arse.

I think that there is room for debate around some of the spaces issues. Perfectly happy to.

But on the ideology - I agree with Rob Jessel - this is the one thing I'm 100% sure I am right on. And I'm 100% sure we're going to win. C'mon, we are arguing with people who literally do not believe in biological sex. Amnesty and Action Aid have both sent emails saying "there is no such thing as a male/female body". Dawn Butler said on national television that babies are born without a sex. This isn't a matter of values or of nuance. It is insane. And it can't possibly last.

Not once, ever.

All the time. All the bloody time.

I have driven myself to a brink wondering if I am actually really a hatful middle aged bigot and wtf happened along the way.

And then I always return to the fact that this is a movement about men who are not getting their own way and will go to the greatest lengths to fix that. Same old, same old.

And now from the bottom of my heart I know I am right. Nobody can go through the (continuing) self-interrogation that I have and not repeatedly gone to the same conclusion that I am NOT the bad guy.

The ones who go along with this shit show are intellectually lazy and get rewarded for it.

Our time will come .. this is what keeps me going.

I have also asked myself this question - and I think to many at first glance we seem really intolerant. There's a real spirit of 'you can't say that' abroad and it means that no one speaks their opinion. Most don't read what JK Rowling wrote and just assume she's a bigot. But like others here I do see a light being shone on some of this and opinions changing, the law intervening to do the right thing. I hope we will all snap out of it in a few years and common sense will prevail.

Unfortunately some of the lessons learnt may be at a cost - young people who transitioned because the advice of pressure groups was followed over clinical good practice, female inmates who were locked up with violent trans women, sportswomen who lost out or were injured due to physical disadvantage.

No, never.

I have the courage of my convictions, and of it comes right down to it this is the hill I will die on.

Definitely uncomfortable sometimes. But there are women I admire who I know in real life who find the whole current thing very unsettling, and that helps - seeing 'good people' with similar politics who get it.

Also, the death threats, versus being careful to talk about the ideology and activism rather than individuals. I know which 'side' are wearing the caps with the skulls on them.

No, because we can't change sex. The whole thing is a lie

And remember what we do support; we support freedom of gendered expression and gender non-conformity, we support trans rights, we support women's sex-based rights, we support same-sex relationships, we support freedom of choice, we support a child-centred holistic non-labelling flexible approach to working with children and young people with gender issues - but we can't support a lie