Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Does anyone ever have a "are we the baddies"* moment?

662 replies

Menstrualcycledisplayteam · 27/02/2021 21:39

  • it's a Mitchell & Webb sketch, probably on Youtube.

I'm a bit disheartened this week, if I'm honest. I sometimes feel like this is a fight that we're just not going to win. Two main things recently, one personal, one geo-political I suppose.

On the geo-political level, I look across the Pond to the US, where the only people who are saying the same things as us are frigging Rand Paul and Marjorie Taylor Greene, neither of which are people that I associate my politics as being anywhere close to. There is just no bloody way that the Left, my home, will align with us now, given who our "allies" are in the States. They just can't, even those that agree with us will never position themselves as having the same concerns as Marjorie Q-Anon Parkland Taylor Bloody Greene.

The second is personal. I work for a large global organisation in a senior role. We had our Global Leadership "Away Day" a few weeks ago (on Teams, of course) and there was a presentation from some US colleagues on LGBTQ+, being able to bring your whole self to work, that kind of thing, from two gay colleagues, one lesbian one gay. So far, so good - absolutely the right thing for my organisation to be doing. Then they got onto pronouns and how everyone should start every meeting asking what pronouns attendees want to have used and encouraging everyone to put them in our email sign-offs. I'm never going to do that, but I can already see it happening around the organisation (particularly the US, but some of the easily led/want to be noticed over here will soon follow suit).

My husband won't listen to me talk about this sort of stuff anymore - he agrees with me, but says that it is basically like someone saying they "don't agree with all that Black Lives Matter stuff". My best friend works with young people and whilst I've tried to approach it with her very gently, including all of the stats about single sex spaces and how women and children's safety is negatively affected as a result, her reaction is that she gets all of that but she works with children every day who are tortured by their own bodies.

I know that our concerns are justified, I know that women's safety/opportunities are going to be negatively affected but - if I'm completely honest with myself - I just can't see how we're going to stop it. Julie Bindel has a tweet pinned to her feed which is basically that the misogyny at the moment is like a tidal wave and that's how it feels.

I'm not sure why I'm writing this really - certainly not to bring anyone down but there's no-one I can speak to about this in real life. How do you even go about discussing these things when, in my work at least, it would probably get me fired and everyone around me in my personal life has either bought into the nonsense hook line and sinker, or just doesn't want to hear it?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
DickKerrLadies · 28/02/2021 07:30

@NotBadConsidering

Have I taken a trans person to court and had it thrown out on day one? No [waves to Mimmymum 👋].

Do I tell children that they can change sex or that they have been “born in the wrong body”? No [waves to Mermaids 👋].

Do I facilitate that lie by giving children drugs that will permanently harm their bodies, leading to a lifetime of decreased bone density, decreased fertility, decreased sexual function, increased cancer risk, increased risk of stroke, complications of surgery, a lifetime of medicalisation and a potential for unknown side effects, all for the sake of now proven no improvement in their psychological functioning? No [waves to all the gender clinics around the world 👋].

Do I wilfully ignore dangerous males, rapists, sexual predators and paedophiles who claim the identity of woman and pretend “it doesn’t happen”? No [waves to more people than I can mention 👋].

Do I look at Laurel Hubbard, a 40 something year old white male millionaire standing on the podium towering above an 18 year old indigenous Samoan woman, survivor of childhood abuse and foster care Feagaiga Stowers and think it’s fair? No.

Have I ever tweeted JK Rowling, or any other woman who has expressed similar opinions and told her to “shut the fuck up cunt/suck on my transgender lady cock”? No.

So no, I don’t think I’m the baddie.

I wonder what it is we're supposed to have done which would make us worse than the people already doing this.
WarriorN · 28/02/2021 07:29

It's exceptionally hard at times.

For example, 1984.

I had no idea there was a whole nuttery conspiracy theory around that and the pandemic, also pre pandemic. Till someone I know of committed suicide because of it.

Stick to the facts and say it plainly.

Unfortunately I agree it will get worse before it gets better.

WarriorN · 28/02/2021 07:17

If I ever do it's brief and I immediately work through all the stuff around children and immediately know I'm right. I also go and read SevenHex's blog or Miranda and remember there are a lot of sane transwomen agreeing with us.

I listen to the 'other side'. I was sort of the other side inasmuch as "be kind," without a deeper understanding. It's important to hone arguments correctly and be aware that language is used carefully.

There's been some good points on the Levine thread around the language, too stark and it's immediately alienating.

AbstractHeart · 28/02/2021 07:13

It's not about "goodies" and "baddies", this is just the latter part of the process of social change.

First minority opinions build momentum until they become the majority view. Then the remaining people experience social pressure to conform to this new majority view (this is where you are now). Those that are unable to change their view get a label (in this case "transphobe", but in other examples "racist", "homophobe", "sexist", "technophobe", etc).

exLtEveDallas · 28/02/2021 05:47

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

SusannaMorvern · 28/02/2021 04:49

Yeah, sometimes.

I followed Charlie Martin's journey, long before all the shit started to hit the fan and sympathised with her hugely. She's now a Stonewall ambassador and describes herself as a TRAHmm. Up until recently I would have been happy to describe her as a woman, and maybe still would. But I don't see her in the same way as some other TW media darlings or the TRAs who abuse women online. Asfaik she also refers to herself as a transwomen, not a woman.

It's people like her who complicate things for me.
mobile.twitter.com/GoCharlieM

Teapot13 · 28/02/2021 04:41

I worry about this, especially since I know there are a lot of people around me who would be horrified if they knew my views.

The bottom line is, it makes strange bedfellows on both sides. I find myself agreeing with Marjorie Taylor Greene, on one tiny issue, which is nevertheless disgusting. On the other hand, the people who think they are being nice, liberal and woke are lining up behind the mullahs in Iran when it comes to gender reassignment surgery.

Coyoacan · 28/02/2021 04:28

I've never doubted my opinions on this issue since I first formed them. You cite ultra right-wingers that agree with us but then we are talking about some extremely basic biology here.

To my mind the so-called left that chant TWAW are not left-wing at all. Being left wing is wanting to redistribute wealth and at least create a broad social safety net for the weakest in society. Biden is not and never has been left wing.

NotBadConsidering · 28/02/2021 03:43

Have I taken a trans person to court and had it thrown out on day one? No [waves to Mimmymum 👋].

Do I tell children that they can change sex or that they have been “born in the wrong body”? No [waves to Mermaids 👋].

Do I facilitate that lie by giving children drugs that will permanently harm their bodies, leading to a lifetime of decreased bone density, decreased fertility, decreased sexual function, increased cancer risk, increased risk of stroke, complications of surgery, a lifetime of medicalisation and a potential for unknown side effects, all for the sake of now proven no improvement in their psychological functioning? No [waves to all the gender clinics around the world 👋].

Do I wilfully ignore dangerous males, rapists, sexual predators and paedophiles who claim the identity of woman and pretend “it doesn’t happen”? No [waves to more people than I can mention 👋].

Do I look at Laurel Hubbard, a 40 something year old white male millionaire standing on the podium towering above an 18 year old indigenous Samoan woman, survivor of childhood abuse and foster care Feagaiga Stowers and think it’s fair? No.

Have I ever tweeted JK Rowling, or any other woman who has expressed similar opinions and told her to “shut the fuck up cunt/suck on my transgender lady cock”? No.

So no, I don’t think I’m the baddie.

Escapetab · 28/02/2021 03:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CatChant · 28/02/2021 03:02

But TRAs are not synonymous with trans people.

jj1968 · 28/02/2021 02:43

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I wonder are there many TRA forums having these discussions?

GrinWine

Just as a technical point, if you were the 'bad guys' then you wouldn't really expect trans people to be going through this same introspection.
quixote9 · 28/02/2021 02:16

Responding to a side issue: your friend who sees dysphoric children all the time.

Does she know that for a fact? Or are some of those children dysphoric about being shoehorned into sexism and misogyny and desperate to escape their fate?

CatChant · 28/02/2021 02:16

Do I examine and re-assess my opinions? Yes, and that's a good thing to do. Opinions should withstand scrutiny, not be adopted wholesale unthinkingly.

I know we're not the baddies because it's reality vs fantasy, biology vs a myth, lies vs the truth. Selling people lies is immoral and it won't work forever. However, I think an awful lot of people are going to be very badly hurt before the madness passes.

7Days · 28/02/2021 01:43

It's a good thing to reassess every now and again.
The rhetoric moves so fast, positions get so extreme, it's good for everyone to stand back and say where am I, in this discourse?
For me, it stays the same. Biology exists, and sometimes it matters. Kids cant be sent down a path that leads to infertility and loss of sexual function.
Maybe, personally I get it wrong in particulars. But the principles are correct.

Highfalutinlootin · 28/02/2021 01:41

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/02/2021 01:35

No. Though to me this isn’t a moral issue, it’s not about “good” vs “bad”, it’s about truth and reality vs nonsense.

Exactly.

terfinginthevoid · 28/02/2021 01:12

No. Though to me this isn’t a moral issue, it’s not about “good” vs “bad”, it’s about truth and reality vs nonsense.

WhatWouldBarbaraCastleDo · 28/02/2021 01:04

Yes. In the middle of the night when I couldn't sleep. But ultimately I don't think we are. We are being asked to lie and that's wrong. People aren't born in the wrong body. They might think they are, but that's different.

Also, I don't think we will ever feel like we have "won", so it will feel like a long, often demoralising, battle. I think the best we can hope for is that people and organisations that should know better stop doing stupid, harmful things. We'll never know what would have happened without this pushback.

I am very unwilling to be lectured by Americans on feminism. I think my mother's generation battled hard and we now have more rights than women there (especially around maternity rights) and are, understandably, more protective of them.

LastRoloIsMine · 28/02/2021 00:43

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Thingybob · 28/02/2021 00:40

@littlbrowndog

I don’t get how you would cause hurt to adults by standing up for women and girls thingybob?
Because the belief that they are really women is so entrenched in many trans women that stating biological facts causes them distress.
littlbrowndog · 28/02/2021 00:26

I don’t get how you would cause hurt to adults by standing up for women and girls thingybob?

Thingybob · 28/02/2021 00:24

I think it's good they are reading Gardenbird, maybe they will realise we are not all monsters?

I certainly question my beliefs and as I genuinely feel sympathy for many of the adult transitioners who often describe having very unhappy, dysfunctional childhoods, I don't wish to cause them any more distress. For me it's a balancing act trying not to cause distress to others whilst speaking out to protect women and children

DickKerrLadies · 28/02/2021 00:23

Possibly not but I see from Twitter that Helen is watching this thread. Maybe she will start to question her beliefs?

Hmm, I think if that was going to happen it would have happened when she tried to take a trans person to court for transphobia and failed.

gardenbird48 · 28/02/2021 00:18

Possibly not but I see from Twitter that Helen is watching this thread. Maybe she will start to question her beliefs?

I’ve just seen that (and they are targeting the Glinner thread on AIBU). I wonder if any of these people stop and consider the end result of what they are doing for one minute. I doubt it.