Does anyone ever have a "are we the baddies"* moment?

Basically any website or article on the GC side of the coin is now not something I could ever share as an explanation because there’s invariably something I read in it that’s too extreme, unpleasant or insulting for no reason.

I suggest you look up fair play for women, woman's place UK, transgender trend. I'd be interested if you could point me to the extreme and unpleasant stuff on those.

This is exactly how I feel. I mean Rand Paul, oh my god. I am left wing.

I don't see this as a Left vs Right issue, so I don't particularly worry that I'm agreeing with people who hold other views that I would not support.

The TRAs, too, are a mixed bag of political views: they seem perfectly happy to ally themselves with right wingers, racists, misogynists and homophobes.

Also, it's the bigots and puritans who monitor, censor and silence. It's the TRAs who are doing that.

That's awful @worriedstar
I'm very sorry.

I must admit I do find it odd that mimmymum is drawing attention to this thread. She puts so much effort into portraying us as bigots (people who refuse to consider other people's points of view ) so why refer to (not link, obvs - she has to protect people from having to consider our points of views) a thread where we're pointing out how we have considered the other point of view before disagreeing with it

But hey, it gives us more chance to talk about how a self-identified c*s woman took a trans person to court for transphobia and still thinks we're the ones causing harm to trans people.

*littlbrowndog

Nope never. I am a young bigot

I know bigots from all age groups.

Not one not one can even believe this madness

Teens I know mock it

My age mock it*

Glad to hear it. I am very much trying to bring up my DC - school age- to join your ‘bigot’ club.

I try and in-still critical, independent thinking - which include disagreeing with me and seeking out the evidence base for themselves.

And I'm pleased that this is being referenced on twitter - because these reasons are why more and more people are speaking out, funding judicial reviews and challenging lobby group captured schools and organisations. As ever - the more sunlight, the better

I have quietly kept my views to myself, bending over backwards when the young people I work with change names and pronouns and get upset when I accidentally misgendered them. My male partner thinks my views are abhorrent, twaw, jk is wrong, I am wrong, the reason our young daughters find shared toilets etc uncomfortable is because of the hang ups I have passed on to them....that It’s not up to me to define woman. However...now our son is affected..underage and being groomed by god knows who and I am getting angry. I can’t keep quiet anymore.

I really think we need to stop comparing our politics to the US. We may share a common language but come on, the UK is nothing like the US. They have some serious issues around gun ownership, ultra-conservative religious views, and some very serious racial prejudice issues that are unique to their country and not ours. The US does not have universal healthcare free at the point of use and are not big supporters of green initiatives. To be right wing in the US is very different than to be right wing in the UK. Boris Johnson would be considered a left-wing politician in the US!

We should stop comparing ourselves to other nations. We have the opportunity in this country to set the narrative. The UK still has some influence through soft power. Once the tide turns internationally, and it will, because as someone has already said things will get worse before they get better.

All humans are baddies.

Just differing levels.

Yes I feel this way sometimes, mainly related to your first point. When I started getting involved in discussions around this, I feel like the GC side of things was the more moderate, sane view. I’ve watched as things have become increasingly polarised, as GC people have started promoting views and websites of far right arseholes because they happen to agree on this issue etc. Basically any website or article on the GC side of the coin is now not something I could ever share as an explanation because there’s invariably something I read in it that’s too extreme, unpleasant or insulting for no reason.

The sad part is that I feel separating sex from gender is to the benefit of all and is the more liberal position. It’s absolutely shit that it’s been lumped in with right wing ideology.

My personal feeling at this point is that both sides are digging deeper holes into unpleasantness - while it’s true that there are trans activists who make awful threats to GC women and GC women don’t retaliate, we are at the point where everyone is so angry and fed up that there is no room to consider where common ground exists and what could be achieved. I understand that this is mostly due to frustration at things worsening but it’s not constructive.

When I spend time on MN or Twitter I can see the stressful echo chamber where all trans people and allies want nothing more than total capitulation, and where GC women are kicking off about any tiny thing tangentially related to gender / sex.

Then I remember that the world is not like that at all - most people are either unaware of all this or they are moderate, certainly the people I’ve spoken to in real life anyway.

To be fair the same thing has happened with politics generally over the last five years or so - I am definitely politically left but have watched as both sides of the spectrum have become increasingly extreme in their views.

Not really. Because i'm a boring person thats quite focused on data and processes. So i like to make sure the process around safeguarding, human rights, equalities are robust. This supports trans people and women.

That more people, parents especially, aren’t up in arms is quite something for me to understand (except I know that many people haven’t yet connected the dots, or aren’t aware at all of what’s happening).

Yes it's two factors:

1. They now trust the safeguarding and medical system so much that they can't comprehend that these charities and nhs trusts could possibly be causing harm.

1. Rainbows and glitter and bekind has been sprinkled everywhere and language and "rights" and "marginalised" has been normalised, backed up with misrepresented suicide stats, so that most dare not query actual harm.

This is the only area where safeguarding comes second to individual wants.

Yes, I do occasionally have those moments, and as you say OP I haven't really got many people to discuss with in real life, partly I think because the TRAs have made it all so confusing with their language games that people (lefties) just give up and go "well I'm on the side of the underdog" i.e. trans people, so when you've really read about it you find yourself out on a limb with no one to discuss it at that level of depth with.
I did have one such "Am I a baddy" moment when I was telling my OH about the Julia Hartley Brewer interview regarding breast/"chestfeeding" and how good she was and my OH says "You do realise she's a right wing nut job?" or similar (I'd never come across her).And I was like Ohhhh. I will never get into bed with right wingers. I'm a feminist and a lefty til I die. So then I thought maybe the right wingers and the liberal feminists agree on this issue but for different reasons...and then my brain got scrambled
But when I think about it even briefly, I know deep in my heart that I'm not wrong.

Hi OP, what you are describing is the external pressure to conform. You don’t have to internalise this.

Humans periodically have really bad ideas. The United States is an empire that’s projecting its own norms onto the rest of the planet (helped by tech companies that pose as ‘global’ but very much do have a nationality). And even within the US, there are many who question the ideology, it’s just that the ruling class has embraced it. A ruling class that is no longer ‘white’ but multiracial and almost exclusively recruited from a very small socio-economic pool. It’s a decadent elite and the idea that what humans think or feel can transcend material reality is one of their luxury beliefs. It’s the classic story of human hubris - the question is only, when will Icarus get too close to the sun? Good luck OP, you are in a hostile environment but it’s ultimately not about you. (PS: the fact that you have doubts speaks well about you)

Great post notbad.

Tras are exceptionally good at breaking or twisting a lot of safeguarding rules.

Another reason I remember very quickly.

Reposting slightly edited, just in case:

This is about truth and reality vs ideological nonsense.

I have all the compassion in the world for those who suffer with dysphoria. There have been many careful, sensitive, compassionate discussions about that here. Many of us have been fighting for years for their protections and safeguarding too, particularly in the case of young, impressionable and easily influenced people.

We also strongly fight for the rights and protections of young lesbians who need our help now more than ever.

What I don’t do is move over for anybody who thinks they should be free to appropriate my space and that of my daughters, and who wants to steal the language, in law and otherwise, that applies to our biological reality.

No. That is ours.

I don't have a 'we are the baddies' feeling, but more and more feel I beat to a different drum than many people, to use a phrase. Not just about issues such as personal 'identity', on women's safe spaces, but in my view on the economic self-harm called Brexit, and how anyone can see Boris Johnson and this government as remotely capable.

I doubt myself all the time. But it's precisely that that means I run through the arguments and evidence frequently.

And you know what? I still think I'm on the side of what is right.