Does anyone ever have a "are we the baddies"* moment?

My husband won't listen to me talk about this sort of stuff anymore - he agrees with me, but says that it is basically like someone saying they "don't agree with all that Black Lives Matter stuff".

His position is like saying 'All lives matter'. Black people are oppressed because of their race, women are oppressed because of their sex. If anyone can be a woman and sex has nothing to do with it then it is denying the root of women's oppression.

I saw a screenshot of the OP's post on FB this morning, posted in a GC group I belong to. TRA's gloating that "at last we're (MNers) beginning to see the light.

It's quite a regular topic over the last few years. There are lots of self-reflective posters here. - And the more so when you've known people personally or professionally for a very long time and know how they'd respond if I questioned when they'd come to believe that sex is a spectrum in humans and (for example) how they reconciled that with their decades of research into reproductive medicine.

I saw a screenshot of the OP's post on FB this morning, posted in a GC group I belong to. TRA's gloating that "at last we're (MNers) beginning to see the light.

Just so they know it: the answer is NO. Never. Not for a second.

God, no. And I haven't seen a single convincing argument to say otherwise. Not one. Quite the opposite.

The arguments for the GC position are constantly piling up, backed up by law courts, HoL, etc. But nothing meaningful ever refutes them, just #NoDebate, Dentons, etc, underpinned with horrific threats for non compliance.

TRAs themselves said that stealth and secrecy was vital because the public would never accept it otherwise!

And it's not particularly political here. Left wingers also agree - hence LabourLosingWomen, WPUK, all the ideologically left leaning mumsnetters, etc. It's cross party.

www.voorzij.nl/more-research-is-urgently-needed-into-transgender-care-for-young-people-where-does-the-large-increase-of-children-come-from/

But there are women I admire who I know in real life who find the whole current thing very unsettling, and that helps - seeing 'good people' with similar politics who get it.
and
I do, all the time, because I am sure I would lose a lot of friends and contacts I'm very fond of over this.

I know very few people IRL who even vaguely understand the issue beyond the call to be kind. I would lose a lot of friends, family and colleagues - women I hugely admire RT mimmymim's slurs about the funding of women's legal actions etc..

Women who hold professorships in medicine and even specialise in women's sex issues RT nonsense about tables and how it proves TWAW. The ones who supported women in the vaginal mesh scandal are entirely happy for children to be given PBs and Xsex hormones on demand.

It's beyond wretched.

There is a balance that can be achieved - there has to be.

Because transgenderism is not going away. When homosexuality was first legalised everyone believed children would be molested and society would split apart at the seems. It didn't. I believe it's very en vogue at the minute especially with teens but given a decade or so it will die down when it's not a new thing.

I was very on the fence until I went to university with a trans man (FTM) he was a very good friend and had transitioned at 16. There were many on our course who never even noticed. He had suffered crippling depression and self harm all throughout his teenage years. He came out in a psychiatric unit after his second suicide attempt. His Father and most of his family wanted nothing more to do with him, that was not a decision taken lightly.

He was 21 when I met him had been living as a man for five years. He was not mentally unwell, he did not pose a menace to society and he was just a normal person who thrived for the first time in his life when he felt comfortable in his own skin.

It really makes no difference to me what someone else does with their genitals. I've known three trans individuals over the years and none of them are abusers, they just want to live their lives in peace and I can't argue with that. A small minority destroy it for the entire community.

The problem with 'trans reform' is that the word? All parties need protecting and that is not currently happening. The current laws focus on the rights of biological men(mtf) and little on the rights of biological women (ftm) and in turn normal women. That needs to change, then again I believe society as a whole needs a complete transformation from the archaic rigidity we face.

2021 - they can land apparatus on mars but women aren't paid equal wages. Minorities are still being attacked in the streets, women are still inferior in walks of life, black people are having to riot for equal treatment, the world is still run by rich white men. It's the whole of that needs to change.

I truly believe over the next ten to twenty years we are finally on the cusp of a new world and I can't wait for it.

And yes, I agree with whoever said that ‘sex and gender are different things’ is a politically progressive position.

Me too. It's the conflating of sex and gender that causes the problems. I totally support anyone exploring and expressing their gender identity.

I don't see why that should mean males with a femme gender identity should participate in female sports.

I do, all the time, because I am sure I would lose a lot of friends and contacts I'm very fond of over this.

Then you see how intimidating some trans identifying people can be over, eg, the toilet issue we're not supposed to be angry over. The aggression, the gloating about being in women's space, violent memes about what they'll do to anyone who calls them out in there, even selfies flashing.

I'm sure most trans women do want to 'pee in peace' and this must be horrible for them to be caught up in. But the entitlement from TRAs who don't care about what they are doing to women by barging into single sex spaces and literally willy waving, just can't be coming from a good place.

And don't underestimate the role of professional jealousy in this, especially in the arts, when it comes to which 'side' people take re- JKR.

@CaledonianMacBrayne

No makes t shirts with “yay! My Mum’s concerns ensured I would have full sexual function when I was 35!” On them.

Time for a crowdfunded?

the Right generally prefers to support traditional gender roles while the Left wants to disrupt/get rid of them

Left and Right are essentially economic viewpoints. Moral issues are on a different axis and when you look at when important pieces of legislation was passed it's a mix of left and right governments, e.g.the slave trade was abolished by a Tory government and slavery was abolished by a Whig government. Women initially got the vote during a Coalition government, and the franchise was equalised between men and women under a Conservative government. Homosexuality was decriminalised by a Labour government and gay marriage was legalised by a Conservative government.

We should not assume that left leaning men all support women's rights, history shows we have been let down by them repeatedly over the last two centuries.

Oh and one other thing, while I’m sounding off. The absolute lack of support from leftwing men on this issue is sad but completely unsurprising given their history over the decades of telling leftwing women to sit down, shut up and get with achieving whatever the latest important issue for leftwing men is. Leftwing men are not exempt from misogyny and despite their awareness of lots of other forms of structural privilege they are often blind to their own when it comes to sex-based inequalities. So no, the fact that a lot of leftwing men are wrong on this issue does not give me pause for thought. They’ve let us down with a lack of solidarity on many issues in the past. It is entirely to be expected unfortunately.

Deathgrip When I spend time on MN or Twitter I can see the stressful echo chamber where all trans people and allies want nothing more than total capitulation, and where GC women are kicking off about any tiny thing tangentially related to gender / sex.

Do you see these as comparable? One side wants total capitulation and you perceive the other to over-sensitive to triggers?

Do you sometimes wonder if the 'over-sensitivity' is over-sensitive or people correctly anticipating an implication that you haven't seen as yet?

I wasn't here but apparently before the 2004 GRA some of the women on the precursor to FWR predicted what was coming and the logical outcome of that - and people thought they were over-sensitive at best and deluded and beyond at worst.

I think it depends on how far along one is on this particular critical journey...for me there is no room left for any meaningful doubt on this. I have done years and years of wrestling with this and the many related issues and as I said previously, I have the courage of my hard-earned convictions.

I don’t position myself anywhere aside from my own beliefs. I think there is a mental health crisis in young people and I think identity politics sits alongside a need to belong. We used to have real life communities, now we have online communities. Young people have found their tribe,

It used to be Mods and Rockers in my parents generation, then Punk, we had New Romantics, Grunge, Indie and Goth. Parents used to be shocked by raucous music, piercings and tattoos. They used to be shocked by children coming out as gay. Now we’ve upped the anti and children are trapped in the wrong bodies. Honestly I just roll my eyes. It’s another fad.

There was a very interesting Triggernometry interview I watched with Zuby where he discussed BLM and the pendulum swing. I think he got it exactly right. The pendulum was swung one way for a long time and now it needs to swing the other way to eventually rest in the middle. So I’m happy to watch the whole thing play out and I feel in the end both sides will find a middle point where neither are completely happy but when there is compromise that is always the case.

'Modest doubt is the beacon of the wise' is a saying I have taped over my desk.

(WShakespeare, Troilus & Cressida)

It's reason why they are so fond of no debate, Biscuits because when questioned the arguments tend to fall apart.

CallforHecate sadly I can't claim any credit, I found it on Facebook.

I do find it ironic that TRA who have ensured that anyone speaking publicly on this issue who doesn’t believe TWAW gets piled on/threatened/sacked/advised/doxxed/banned to the point where only the privileged few who are unsackable or independently wealthy can speak out

Then use it as a “gotcha”
“Aha look no else agrees with you”

I wouldn’t be proud of that myself, if they are on the side of the angels why not allow full free and Frank discussion? Surely the power of their logical arguments would carry the day right?

@Wrongsideofhistorymyarse 😂 wowsers. Impressive use of fonts!

Like this CallforHecate?

Thanks for starting this thread OP. I think it's really important to question your position and reflect on the reasons why you hold a certain view. Likewise, whenever you read an article it's important to always take a step back and think about who wrote it and the perspective they are coming from. Basic stuff I know, yet so many TRA seem devoid of such critical thinking skills. One of the most frustrating aspects I find is the lack of robust arguments they offer. It's tedious to simply read 'what a TERF!' as though that's some sort of argument.

It's been quite helpful to have this thread linked to Twitter as it's given me the chance to read some of the comments. The overarching opinion seems to be 'take the hint, if you think differently to your friends and family, then you are wrong'. Funnily enough I left that sort of dogmatic group think at school when I learnt to think for myself. As it happens friends and family do agree with me on this issue, but even if they didn't I'm sure I'd be able to continue thinking for myself rather than rejecting my beliefs and adopting theirs without question.