Does anyone ever have a "are we the baddies"* moment?

Ugh, it's just the same old woman hating crap misogyny that's always been about.

Just now with blue hair and pronoun badges.

I question my beliefs all the time.

But on this particular issue I stand firm. I know exactly where my line is.

^^ This

Every time I see what the activists are saying about our discussions and how evil we are to want to maintain women's rights and safeguarding for children, it cements my resolve further.

We are not the bad guys.

My position is not a belief, it's accepting the reality that sex is real, it matters and it can't be changed.

That is a very important point too.

I have thrown out a whole system of belief, which action carried with it the need to discard absolutely everything I had known to be true about myself as well as the world. I have built up, from scratch, a personhood separate to the one that had been foisted onto me. It was rough. It almost killed me, tbh. But I survived, and thrive. Examining with critical distance is central to my being now by virtue of the hard work I’ve done on this in the past (and, probably more so, the things I have personally seen and experienced in my lifetime).

But on this particular issue I stand firm. I know exactly where my line is.

*exactly

I saw a screenshot of the OP's post on FB this morning, posted in a GC group I belong to. TRA's gloating that "at last we're (MNers) beginning to see the light.

They can't read as all these threads end up exact the same. Women describing how any doubt ends up cementing their ideas.

I was very much on the pro-trans TWAW side. I think I saw it as the same as being gay and saw trans rights in the same light.

The Bell case made me question and look into things more. After watching and reading about de-transitioner stories I started looking at myself and my LGBT+ and woke friends and going 'omg, are we the baddies?'.

I do not have certainty that my current opinion is 100% correct but I think this experience has shown me that certainty can be overrated and that caution has value.

I posted to the wrong thread and asked for my post to be deleted.

@yourhairiswinterfire perfectly put. Thank you

It's been over 7 years since my eyes were opened to this and since then there's hardly been a day where I've not read or engaged with the subject in some way.

Some may say I'm obsessed but once you see what an all out attack on the rights of women and girls this is and the wider implications of forcing an ideology on all of us, it becomes impossible to look away and do nothing.

My position is not a belief, it's accepting the reality that sex is real, it matters and it can't be changed.

I think it's also useful to look at some of the 'selective silences' of high profile TRAs.

There are some very prominent TRAs with large platforms who generally comment on any issues as they crop up in the media, yet remain silent on certain aspects. Yesterday's Telegraph article is a good example of this. Only some of the most invested individuals chose to talk about it, with many others steering clear. Could it possibly be that they don't actually agree with 12+ year olds being able to access cross sex hormones without parental knowledge due to a legal loophole being exploited by a suspended GP? The problem is, they wouldn't be able to voice their concerns without getting a ridiculous amount of backlash, so they stay silent and many take their silence to assume agreement.

No.

I read differing views all the time. Some are polite and I can appreciate where they're coming from but still find myself respectfully disagreeing. Some views are so out there I have to suspend my disbelief...

I don't think rapists belong in women's prison. I don't think any males belong in women's prisons. Not all men are rapists or abusers, but we can't tell the good from the bad, so we exclude them all for good reasons.

I don't think women and children who are fleeing domestic abuse, or women who have been raped should be forced to share a refuge, their only safe space, with males. They need time to recover away from them. This shouldn't be controversial.

I think women who have been raped or sexually assaulted should have the right to request a female examiner in the aftermath. I was horrified at all the adults ''shaking and sobbing'' in disgust and abusing women online when Scotland decided to allow women this choice. I'm definitely not the bad guy in that scenario.

I don't think male bodied athletes should be allowed to cheat women out of their medals and money. I've seen the evidence that it's unfair. I read the 'other side' debunking that evidence for balance. It's not fair, and in many cases it's not safe for the women, who can't speak out about it without facing a nasty backlash.

I don't think it's right that young children are pushed immediately onto an irreversible medical pathway because they're questioning their gender. Before the recent reverse ferret, it was based on nothing more than liking the 'wrong' toys, clothes or hobbies (even now, after the reverse ferret, it's still not clear what they're basing it on). I truly believe it will all blow up and be the biggest scandal of our time. The High Court recently confirmed my concerns. Three judges all in agreement, after viewing thousands of pages of evidence and hearing from experts in the field.

I don't think women need to be degraded to please a tiny number of people. Include transmen, by all means, but don't call me a menstruator, a vulva owner, an ovary-haver to do so. There are respectful ways to include everyone that aren't dehumanising. Orgs are loving this, they seem to be using it as an opportunity to be as gross, offensive and misogynistic as they can. 'Black birthing bodies' and 'autistics with a cervix' was quite a low point.

I've never threatened to kill anyone, or rape anyone, or attempted to get anyone sacked for having a different opinion to me. I've never threated someone so badly that they need security with them whilst they work. I'd never dream of threatening anyone's children, or writing to a mother and detailing graphically how I hope her children will die because she said something I disagree with. I've never punched a woman for attending a women's meeting. I would never make effigies of women to hang because they don't agree with me. I could never imagine being the kind of person that makes bomb threats to prevent a group having a meeting.

I'd also never tweet a picture of a coffin and express my excitement that someone's fathers, grandfathers, mothers, grandmothers will be dead soon, all because they believe that mothers should be referred to as mothers in a maternity bill.

I recognise biology. I'm grounded in reality. I read opposite opinions and I'm always open to having my mind changed. If any of my above views make me a 'baddie', so be it.

Sorry I haven’t read the full thread.

I just wanted to comment to sympathise with the OP, because I think one of the really shit side effects of all of this in work places has been to implicitly position those who want to stand up and speak out for the rights of women as reactionary bigots. My work place is in the middle of all this, and it feels like I am the only one speaking out (as others have mentioned, the fucking men generally see this as not their issue/a minority concern). I have started pointing out to HR and the senior people that actually they have a responsibility here to not allow the fuelling of that sort of division; I don’t think it had really occurred to them, and I don’t think they had fully grasped the extent of the self censorship and fear held by those of us who haven’t bought the gender woo. There’s a lot of virtue signalling flag waving going on, but very little of it is actually well thought through. Once you start challenging that and asking them to think through the implications, then I think more start to see that the position isn’t as solid and easy as they previously thought (an emphasis on the “easy” there - I think many are attracted to the TRA position as they think it’s a cost free way of displaying their left liberal credentials. When they are made to pause and think about what that might mean for, say, women from religious communities which don’t not allow the sexes to mix in certain contexts, or sexual assault victims (20% of women) then they do start to see this is not quite the easy “good v evil” they thought it was.)

But to more directly answer your question: yes of course I regularly check myself. I try to read stuff from the trans standpoint too. That’s just good reflexive thinking. And I’m happy to say I haven’t changed my position. If anything I’ve strengthened it.
But I do also see that there are, inevitably, some errors expressed on the radfem side. For example I think it’s fair to say the Brighton “chest feeding” stuff was over stated. I might be wrong (I’m sure someone will say if so!) but when I looked into that, it did seem that the chest feeding thing was specifically for transmen. It won’t be the term used for the wider maternity service. Personally I’m fine with that. I think that’s what we want (to recognise the different needs of trans people and provide appropriate services to then, but not to adapt the services for the majority of women just to cater for the tiny tiny minority).
Of course I can understand, in the context of the erasure of the word “woman” that there is extreme sensitivity, which is why the chest feeding was jumped on. But mistakes like that don’t make us bad. They make us human

“Voldemort himself created his worst enemy, just as tyrants everywhere do! Have you any idea how much tyrants fear the people they oppress? All of them realize that, one day, amongst their many victims, there is sure to be one who rises against them and strikes back!”

• J.K. Rowling, Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince

No, because children have been sterilised because of the toys they prefer to play with.
Women get death and rape threats online because they know where babies come from.
Black women are somehow seen to be like men by activists.
Same sex attraction needs to be overcome

Etcetc. We aren't the baddies.

People who never question their beliefs are not practising critical thinking. A lack of critical thinking and logic is at the root of some of the problems we're up against. Emotive, feelings-based ideas are often less rational. Which isn't to say feelings don't matter, just that they are not always the best metric to base law and policy on.

I find it hard to reconcile the decades of solidarity I have felt and demonstrated with trans people, and the hateful and bewildering words and actions of TRAs online. In RL I would do anything to support or protect a trans person "in the moment", it is not you trans peeps lurking that I have any issue with, it is the ideology that refuses to accept that the needs of women and trans women must be balanced because it is held there are no needs, risks and interests pertaining only to biological women. I've been on TR forums because I want to challenge my views, and stay grounded in compassion for the real agony that many trans people experience, but the level of contempt for biological women, even allies, and dismissal of the rights of children in those places are chilling.
I personally feel the tide is turning. I think people generally believed, as I did, that the trans rights movement want the same as the lesbian and gay liberation do and are broadly supportive - the "it doesn't affect me" camp. When the logical conclusion of the demands of trans rights activism and impact on others become more apparent more people will challenge.

I saw a screenshot of the OP's post on FB this morning, posted in a GC group I belong to. TRA's gloating that "at last we're (MNers) beginning to see the light.

Perhaps those TRAs are newbies. This question is asked regularly on here. Right down to the quote from Mitchel and Webb!

Neutralise it.

Do you believe it is right or wrong to threaten to rape or kill (or kerb stomp for crying out loud, can you imagine the horror and terror and harm of that??) someone who disagrees with you?

Do you feel that visualising and describing (often in pleasurable detail) doing this to someone else under any circumstances whatsoever is a typical, every day acceptable thing that most people do when someone annoys them?

Do you believe that inclusion justifiably means excluding and punishing a group by removal of all services if they won't conform to your personal politics?

Do you believe that the consent of a female, including a female child, should always be predicated not on her feelings, her bodily boundaries and her needs, but on the consent of a male person who may find her having boundaries they don't agree with too upsetting to tolerate? Do you believe this is a healthy way for society to train women? Do you believe this furthers women's equality?

Do you believe that it is possible to find ways and variety of provision that meets all needs, or do you believe that some provisions should be removed altogether from female people regardless of the impact and exclusion on them, as it is just too distressing for male people that these provisions exist and are not accessible for them?

Do you believe child safeguarding should be watertight and equal in expectation in all situations without exception?

Do you believe that compelled belief, compelled speech, and the idea of removing equality of civil rights and human rights from those who will not comply is something done in a modern, civilised and ethical society?

Decide for yourself. What is right, what is wrong. What are your personal ethics. That's all you need to do.

I normally doubt my own beliefs a lot, but on this issue I don't. The more I read, the more I learn, the more I 'educate myself' the more convinced I am. As someone who works with teenage girls, I am absolutely convinced this is doing them immense harm. Nearly everyone I speak to agree with me, but is too scared to speak out.

Rand Paul agrees with me that you shouldn't sterilise children. I'm 100% OK with that.

I often think worry this but the big one for me is allowing children to take drugs that will permanently change them in a way that they may decide later wasn't actually what they wanted.
I have suffered from several mental illnesses in my life. As a teenager I was absolutely convinced that I was fat and needed to lose weight. So I starved myself, halved my body weight and ended up as 5 stone. Thank god I was stopped, persuaded I was wrong and helped to recover. Otherwise I may have died.
As a new mother I was convinced that I was an awful mother (when I was the opposite) and needed to put my baby up for adoption. Thank god I was supported to see that that wasn't the only option for me, my mental health recovered and I am a very good and happy mother. The thought that someone could have just taken me at my word when I was so vulnerable and mixed up, that I could have lost my darling baby is terrifying.