Does anyone ever have a "are we the baddies"* moment?

Have caught up.

On the Nazis thing.

The reason it persists (in presumably certain parts of the world, those who were not involved presumably don't have it as such a major thing?) is that the message is. Ordinary people can do terrible things.

A warning from history. This must never happen again.

But it has, and the world has been pretty rubbish.

The two that spring to mind are the hutus and tutsis, and srebrenica.

Oh and recently the treatment (torture rape murder) of the Uighurs in China. What happened with the Rohingya in Burma.

Genocide. Mass rape murder torture. Now.

Not as coldly organised as the Nazis but genocide all the same.

So we haven't learnt from history.

And people should not bandy these words around. It devalues the horror. Then and now.

the vast majority of GC talking points were one-dimensional hateful stereotyping, that the scientific consensus did not agree with my position

Can you be a lot more specific? Because all of this sounds quite stirring at a brief glance, but there's not actually any specific detail in it.

What stereotypes are gc feminists supporting?

What science supports TWAW, or whatever the position is that you are apparently supporting?

That Mitchell and Webb sketch is v funny btw

Catching up on the the thread.

As a lifelong lefty feminist it's been an interesting experience to have views that are totally at odds with labour libdems etc.

Yes I do step back regularly and think am I missing something. And each time I come up with the answer no I'm not.

If women are sharing GC stuff from sources we would have not given the time of day to before. It's because no one in the left is saying anything.

Instead it's no debate, woman is a feeling in a man's head, open up the prisons etc.

Thing is that saying they're right wing Christian bots etc doesn't land as it's just so ludicrous.

Yes it bothers me that a large part of the pushback seems to be from people who I suspect want to keep people in strict gender roles based on their sex. Which is what feminists have always fought against.

The trans activist view seems to support the boxes, but say people can pick. And the boxes are all there are.

Also bad.

The constant reference to USA stuff is unhelpful as well.

Here the recognising of sex does not come in a bundle with not protecting gay people etc. It's totally separate.

Anyway yes it's all very interesting. And no, we're not 'baddies'.

I'm not interested in 'winning' or being right. I'm interested in fairness, and protecting and helping women and children.

Very much agree.

The Christian Right, combining their anti trans activism with axing women's right to reproductive healthcare and curtailing the right to abortion. Actual NeoNazis. MRAs and Incels.

Those groups believe males and females naturally have fixed and separate social and family roles, and that unless everyone sticks to them society suffers. (The fact that individual women and men often suffer within those roles is of little concern to them).

Gender critical people believe social and family roles are a function of culture and should be challenged, made flexible and not defined by biology except where they are a direct result of biology (eg childbirth and breastfeeding). But GC people also recognise that the long history of forcing men and women into fixed and separate roles has created a power difference between males and females so here and now females do, and in the case of reproductive rights and support probably always will, need additional rights and protections.

Both groups reject trans ideology but for entirely different and opposing reasons.

They are not on the same side. They are a million miles from the same side. The only people who could ever perceive them as being on the same side are people who make no effort to think beyond slogans and soundbites because TWAW #Nodebate.

Really?? We are continuing down the ‘nazi’ line of thought for people who are fighting to make sure there is no erosion of women’s and children’s rights by establishing the rights of another group.

There is only one reason to call women disagreeing with this ‘nazi’, ‘far right’ and bigot. To silence women and their voicing their need.

If you are resorting to that, maybe look at the groups aligned with also silencing women, threatening women with rape and death, threatening women’s livelihoods, and free speech. Oh and a few prominent people who have written in support of habits that are harmful for children and women that we cannot even mention here but are really well known. One even gets called the father of queer theory.

And of course women are not even remotely like nazis. What a horrific thing to perpetuate.

The link is they (DUP) are, or were, mostly in the Free Presbyterian Church which was started by Ian Paisley Snr. He also founded the DUP.

There may be a little issue at the moment, though. They have fielded their first lesbian candidate, the newly-elected Antrim and Newtownabbey Borough Council representative Alison Bennington. Maybe she is suitably extra hardline about something else which compensates for this in the eyes of the party..

www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2019/05/20/news/schism-between-dup-and-free-presbyterian-church-over-gay-councillor-signals-politics-secular-direction-of-travel-1623228/

I looked who I was keeping political company

And the religious extremists, incels, MRAs, you're keeping company with now, they don't bother you?

Now, it is not in Britain and has not much real influence (unless gov't depends on it's votes to survive), but it is a thing in the UK.

The left/right polarisation whereby everyone bunkers down into their tribe, and flings rocks at the other tribe - has reached the point where something has to give. The Left in Britain is in crisis - as it apes the identity politics of the U.S, and also still clings to its old ideological shibboleths.

The Nazis ... seventy-five years after the Second World War. In a vastly different economic, political, social and cultural context. In connection with a movement that has only existed in its current form for about a decade ... it’s a bit glib to use this comparison, isn’t it?

It’s also deeply disrespectful to those murdered, tortured, persecuted and dispossessed by the Nazis. After they and their allies were defeated, an entire continent had been laid to waste, atomic weapons unleashed on the planet, millions killed in Europe, North Africa and Asia, the Jewish population of entire countries wiped out, unspeakable crimes committed against innocent adults and children. I wonder if anybody in 1945 could have imagined that decades later “Nazi” could be a term of abuse for women who simply said “You and I are not the same.”

No!

Although, of course, that doesn't preclude one from feeling compassion for people who are genuinely suffering.

ascottishmum your post seems to be mostly promoting a false idea, that the GC stance is about hating and attacking trans people. It’s not, it never has been and a look at GC arguments would show you that.

It’s about women, the importance of being able define ourselves on the basis of sex, be protected from male people on the basis of sex, and continue to have single sex spaces including sports, prisons and hospital wards where women are already suffering from male people being allowed in.

It’s also about children and protecting children from a highly culture-driven ideology that can appeal to anyone who feels awkward in their body or that they don’t fit gender stereotypes - I.e many young people, especially girls and especially autistic girls - and result in them harming their bodies and fertility in a way that increasing numbers are coming to regret.

Many trans people agree with the GC stance and agree that humans can’t actually change sex. Many GC people chat and engage with them and are their friends.

GC people oppose trans ideology and misogyny. It is TRAs who go on the attack with violent threats, bullying and trying to destroy people’s livelihoods.

We may discuss some people such as Yaniv who behave appallingly. That;s not stereotyping, it’s examining their actual behaviour.

Yes, constantly because I live in NI and to be a feminist here you must co-sign all trans actions including when they went to a pro choice March and complained it was too feminine and therefore trans exclusive
If you disagree at all you aren’t a feminist you are a TERF bitch amd ejected from all boards etc

The world is complex, but if there's a binary split down a polarising issue

There isn’t a binary split

Theres here..........................................................................and there’s here

And a whole load of people in the middle wondering what the fuck is going on

And you can be on the wrong side of history and still be right...obviously. Its a stupid phrase

Who posted upthread about the difference between simply calling people Nazis and recognizing nazi tactics in action?

It was a really good post.

Not for a single solitary second.

The world is complex, but if there's a binary split down a polarising issue? Look where the Nazis are. Then, for the love of the Goddess, pick the other side.

Er no, because that's a logical fallacy. That just isn't how you decide the truth of things.

Do you have anything more persuasive to give than that?

Yes, because understanding the differences between men and women and wanting children to NOT be experimented on (judges words, not mine) is totally the same as being a Nazi 😴

The Christian Right, combining their anti trans activism with axing women's right to reproductive healthcare and curtailing the right to abortion. Actual NeoNazis. MRAs and Incels.

Our reproductive healthcare is solid, and there'd rightly be hell to pay if anyone tried to change that. I guarantee every single one of us on this board would be at the front of the protests.

The Christian right? This isn't America 😂 Did you manage to keep a straight face as you implied believing in reality is a conspiracy theory whilst spouting the most ridiculous conspiracy theory yourself?

The Christian Right is not a thing in the UK. It’s deeply tedious when ppl bring that out

My DH is lovely - a kinder gentler man you would never meet so I guess we can get rid of safeguarding on that basis right? I mean if we’re basing laws & good practice around “my trans friend is lovely”

@ascottishmum what's bisexual? Could you just run that one by me because it doesn't kind of fit in with your other ideas.