Does anyone ever have a "are we the baddies"* moment?

Both groups reject trans ideology but for entirely different and opposing reasons

i'm not at all sure that they are naturally opposed. Both acknowledge in the natural dignity of the female sex, and understand the reasons that single sex provisions are required.

perhaps some gender criticals need to have some different gender critical thoughts over what they are really out to preserve?

What do I want to preserve? At least the gains we had made for our daughters in reaching for equal opportunity. From my point of view, that equal opportunity has just been moved further away because now we are being told some males are better women and deserve women’s opportunities in a still sexist society.

I want for my daughters equal opportunity, not sub servience to an antiquated gender control system with jobs for the boys first.

I am not so sure where you got the idea women such as those fighting to uphold women’s rights against the conflicts of another groups are trying to uphold ‘jobs for the boys’.

I think that once you start realizing just how a supposed small minority has already gained what seems like a disproportionate number of the women’s roles in political parties and universities there should be concerns about the future opportunities for our daughters. (and I would love to see the statistics to calm my concerns about this).

These roles have influence over policy and are roles that provide experience for future policy and political roles.

Then when you start seeing the other impacts such as gender balanced boards that are now 75% male , panels for inspiring women into career streams having a disproportionate representation of males who identify as women on them, yes, I am concerned for my daughter’s future.

So, it is NOT just sport. If you think holding up a male who has had a wealth of opportunities that have not been available to women as a successful woman is a great role model for your daughters as busting gender stereotypes, that is great.

I prefer to point my daughter in the direction of females who have achieved. I would prefer my daughter to be represented by a female when policies are discussed and set to ensure they are actually fair and relevant to her needs.

From what I can see trans peeps have been around in modern life for fifty years in larger numbers, and there are only the isolated incidents catalogued on deliberate threads on here that incite a feeling that "trans" is a bigger problem then it really is.

I dont' think anyone is saying 'trans is a problem', if they are then report it - that would be the actual definition of transphobia.

Feminists don't care how people choose to present or act, so long as they are not harming other people. My problem is that women are being asked to budge up and allow males into spaces that have been specifically made for females. (Some of them hypothetical spaces, like 'all women' shortlists, which are now allowed to include any male who says he is a woman or non-binary, for example).

Honestly, I still struggle to see the issue and am a fan of "hold the person offending responsible" not a class of people due to their presentation/identity. That smacks too much of a bad history of segregation and discrimination.

In virtually all violent crime, males are the aggressors. We segregate the sexes to protect the sex that is more likely to be on the receiving end of violence.

I actually have come to believe it's positive - as it smashes gender stereptype norms keeping us all down. Why is is the alt right is supporting this so much? Is it to protect women, or is is to protect the patriachy and system of control that the left have a strength in challenging?

How does 'pink = female, long hair and make-up = female' smash any stereotypes?

I want for my daughters equal opportunity, not sub servience to an antiquated gender control system with jobs for the boys first.

And how do you feel about Pips Bunce, who is a man on some days and a woman on others? Pips can have the best of both worlds, including winning awards for 'woman of the year'.

That said, I still have some concerns around the physicality of sport, but am waiting to see how this all evolves. The sports authorities seem best placed to review ranges of ability and physicality and make some rules.

So, you think we do need sex segregation in some cases? That is precisely the gc viewpoint.

Yup - especially when a teenage relative said the issue is the same as it was for gay people decades ago, but then I thought about it again and realised it isn't at all the same. The whole ideology is based on a lie and the abuse and violence is coming from one direction.

Whether it be the conservative "women are homemakers" people or the woke "I was born with a gender identity" people. However, it is so stupid and nonsensical that my hope is that it will eventually fall apart.

Just to be clear for pp the gender critical feminist position is neither of those things. There are lots of other people (including many men) who are not gender critical in a feminist sense, but also don't buy into gender identity ideology in the same way they also think water is wet.

I actually have come to believe it's positive - as it smashes gender stereptype norms keeping us all down.

Huh? It does the exact opposite.

Gender ideology absolutely reinforces gender stereotypes. It is not tolerant, it is not open, it is not progressive at all! It is based entirely on forcing boys/girls into regressive male/female gender roles. GC feminists constantly and determinedly fight against those.

If you can’t see that you need to do a lot more thinking.

I don't know any gender critical feminists who want a gender control system with jobs for the boys first. I think anyone who does want that couldn't say they were critical of gender.

I'm not sure if this person is uninformed about what gender critical feminists actually think, or they are simply being goady.

But really.....perhaps some gender criticals need to have some different gender critical thoughts over what they are really out to preserve? I want for my daughters equal opportunity, not sub servience to an antiquated gender control system with jobs for the boys first.

I don't know any gender critical feminists who want a gender control system with jobs for the boys first. I think anyone who does want that couldn't say they were critical of gender. Not everyone critical of transgender ideology is also gender critical.

I also don't see how transgender ideology smashes gender stereotypes. It reinforces them.

*Obviously barring certain situations around safeguarding or exceptional positions of power or influence. But I’m not going to get into that here.

Legal sex self ID, as trans organisations lobbied for. They are ok with people saying "I identify as a woman" as long as it doesn't mean too much.

Saying someone can’t change their sex is not out of step with mainstream thinking

The idea that it is is laughable. Most people are willing to live and let live. Right until the time they perceive a problem. Polling shows that the majority of the population don't support sex self ID.

Honestly, I still struggle to see the issue

Because sex really matters in many ways, and women are a disadvantaged class. Males commit most violent and sexually violent crime. Women are not second class citizens, our privacy, dignity and boundaries should matter equally as much as male feelings.

But there are lots of people who "struggle to see the issue". Don't kid yourself it makes you more progressive and enlightened.

If you’re afraid to tell the truth about something that everybody knows to be true, you’re not the one on the wrong side of history!

Honestly the young, woke, intolerant extremists are going to have to experience the dark side of their own beast before they learn.

Many of us have seen it before. They have not. They don’t have a clue.

I ask myself this question a lot and am constantly questioning what I believe on this stuff. From what I can tell this is the strongest argument on the other side:

From what I can see trans peeps have been around in modern life for fifty years in larger numbers, and there are only the isolated incidents

The GC argument is very much the "thin end of the wedge" argument. The difficulty is that none of us know how fat the wedge really is. Perhaps GC feminists are making a big fuss over something that ends up being a passing phase? Or perhaps this is the beginning of a major reversal of women's rights. None of us know the answer to that.

My conclusion is that neither side are "the right side of history" but that this debate is healthy, timely and necessary. I think the "right answer" will be a compromise that prioritises the safety and dignity of women and transwomen. Essentially a boring set of compromises based on the level of risk involved (e.g. prisons = high therefore we must maintain sex segregation).

At a more philosophical level I am concerned that the majority of people seem to somehow think gender is innate. Whether it be the conservative "women are homemakers" people or the woke "I was born with a gender identity" people. However, it is so stupid and nonsensical that my hope is that it will eventually fall apart.

How is saying that boys who like dresses, pink and sparkles are really girls because only girls like them smashing gender stereotypes?

Secondly - the bit about getting fired if you air gender critical views. Don't you think that should also indicate that you may be out of step with mainstream thinking

Saying someone can’t change their sex is not out of step with mainstream thinking

For me the most interesting and shocking part of this whole debate is that it has become impossible to mention purely the risk factor to women from actual men in single sex spaces, whilst making it clear you do believe TWAW and don't think the trans people themselves are a threat, without being cancelled. So what they are basically saying is women are bigoted just for wanting to discuss the parts of these policies that effect them.

I hink (hope) there will eventually be a wider backlash against this lack of nuance, and utter social exile of people who are broadly well intentioned, but just happened to discuss something others find unpalatable. I think the general public is becoming increasingly impatient with that culture.

It will definitely come as a shock to these people to discover they were actually on the wrong side of history, though, as the inclusive left have rarely been the baddies up until now!

I'm quite happy to ascribe positive motivations to a lot of those advocating TWAW. I genuinely believe that most of them believe they are being kind and inclusive.

I really wish that we got the same kind of respect in the other direction and an acknowledgement that we aren't opposing TWAW out of bigotry against transwomen but out of a (correct) belief that the disadvantages women face arise because of their sex, rather than their gender.

I know that our concerns are justified, I know that women's safety/opportunities are going to be negatively affected but - if I'm completely honest with myself - I just can't see how we're going to stop it. Julie Bindel has a tweet pinned to her feed which is basically that the misogyny at the moment is like a tidal wave and that's how it feels.*

How do you even go about discussing these things when, in my work at least, it would probably get me fired and everyone around me in my personal life has either bought into the nonsense hook line and sinker, or just doesn't want to hear it?

I'd say there is a lot in this, and thanks for sharing. You talk about the future tense of womens safety/opportunities will be negatively effected. From what I can see trans peeps have been around in modern life for fifty years in larger numbers, and there are only the isolated incidents catalogued on deliberate threads on here that incite a feeling that "trans" is a bigger problem then it really is. Honestly, I still struggle to see the issue and am a fan of "hold the person offending responsible" not a class of people due to their presentation/identity. That smacks too much of a bad history of segregation and discrimination.

I actually have come to believe it's positive - as it smashes gender stereptype norms keeping us all down. Why is is the alt right is supporting this so much? Is it to protect women, or is is to protect the patriachy and system of control that the left have a strength in challenging?

Secondly - the bit about getting fired if you air gender critical views. Don't you think that should also indicate that you may be out of step with mainstream thinking? The alt right love to say: oh this and that have been captured; silenced if you will - while across the whole mainstream media! Actually I think its most people outside of echo chambers with an attitude of "live and let live". Doesn't impact me - actually it may do so in a positive way by creating fairness for all.

I'm not attacking your questions by any means - I find it quite refreshing. No doubt I will get some things thrown at me or scone recipes for daring to go against the grain.

But really.....perhaps some gender criticals need to have some different gender critical thoughts over what they are really out to preserve? I want for my daughters equal opportunity, not sub servience to an antiquated gender control system with jobs for the boys first.

That said, I still have some concerns around the physicality of sport, but am waiting to see how this all evolves. The sports authorities seem best placed to review ranges of ability and physicality and make some rules.

No, I'm not a 'baddie' and I don't care which side of history I am on or who shares my views - people can come to the same conclusion for different reasons or through different routes.

Great post NiceGerbil. It’s also ridiculous that this movement wants to erase sex and say that only “gender identity” matters, yet uses sex categories as at least two of the things that trans people apparently want to be. And then in some case involves surgery and hormones to attempt to mimic these sex categories.

If being trans involved choosing a “gender identity” (like we all do, but feeling the need to give it a name) then fine. There is no reason why it has to involve sex or bodies. Everyone could keep their same sex spaces, attraction, sports and dating agencies etc. and trans people could have their own beliefs about themselves. The fact that TRAs want to abolish sex and yet ensure men can have unfettered access to women in all their previously same sex space is beyond suspect. It’s also remarkable how there’s very little on Twitter, in the media, on academic campuses etc about how trans men must get everything they demand. Hmmmmmmm.

No, we’re not the baddies, and the current situation won’t last. Something really horrible is going to happen, something so awful that mainstream media won’t be able to sweep it under the carpet.
Some male person will have the opportunity to do something so incredibly horrendous that it’s all going to become very difficult to defend and the backlash will be nasty. This movement will reap what its sown.

Nope, not ever have I thought I was a baddie on this issue.
Not once. Not for a moment.

I reflect everytime I find new information , but remain consistently sure I am a goodie. I wish no harm on anyone and every policy I want makes women and children safer. If you are in the same boat you need to question the motivation of someone trying to make you feel bad about that.

I think you are just worried because some horrible people agree with you. So? Who cares?
If you have ever said for example "those who rape children should go to prison and serve long sentences" I guarantee the worst violent racists will agree with you. Again , so fucking what?

Agree with the poster upthread who said that they always come back to the fact that humans simply cannot change sex.

'the vast majority of GC talking points were one-dimensional hateful stereotyping, that the scientific consensus did not agree with my position'

And the idea that woman, female. Girls. The half of the population oppressed for as long as we know, all over the world. The half still subject to subtle or overt discrimination and oppression.

Are a feeling. Nothing to do with our physical reality. Our bodies. Nope. We're. What? A feeling. Nothing more.

All of the 3.5 billion or so women and girls. In all their differences. Their upbringing, their social status. The dangers and opportunities they face. We face.

Femicide in Mexico.
The deaths globally due to unsafe abortion.
Rape, DV, murder. Everywhere.
Getting by in a world that is built by men for men.
The markets of ISIS where they buy and sell kidnapped women. Sex slave market.
The daily harassment all over the world to a greater or lesser degree.
FGM
The failure of police around the world to investigate etc sex offences reported by women and girls
And on and on and on

Women and girls are still controlled through overt or less overt means by society. We are judged harshly. Our contributions are not recognised. Our value is in our looks/ youth / compliance with patriarchy. Globally we do most of the work for the least reward.

And so on and so on.

We are in this situation due to our biology. I can't see how anyone can deny that.

The various ideas currently seem to be

Women unless they adopt a trans identity are happy in their social role
The social role is all there is
Biological differences between men and women are irrelevant.
So the root of our oppression- being the ones who are assumed to have the capacity to bear children and must therefore be controlled so men can be sure of paternity - and also put a whole bunch of other shit on us. Is. Non existent.
If women are cut, raped, married young. Raped. Cat called. That is our choice.
Because woman/ girl is nothing more than something in your head.
We are born to this treatment and we accept it and welcome it.

.. I think that's about it?