Does anyone ever have a "are we the baddies"* moment?

and putting transwomen in danger by forcing them into men's spaces

Women had to fight for sex-segregated spaces, they weren't handed to us on a platter. TW can fight for their own spaces instead of using ours.

Not another attempt to guilt women out of our rights and boundaries. It seems to be the current TRA trend from what I've seen on social media. No. Women matter too.

Kicking transwomen out of women's spaces and forcing transmen into your spaces

No need to force transmen into women's spaces unless it's what they want. They can risk assess for themselves. It's men that are the danger not women. That's why we segregate by sex. It's not about keeping men safe from women. It's about protecting women from mens behaviour. Now men are seeking to break those boundaries down. Men go to great lengths to access the bodies of women and children. People like you enable and support that behaviour.

and putting transwomen in danger by forcing them into men's spaces?

Women are not a human shield for men. No matter how those men identify. If transwomen feel unsafe from other men than campaign for a third space. I don't see many of them doing this though. That's because for many, it's not about the space, but the women in it also, to validate their identity. Their validation is at the expense of women and children's safety. That's not good enough.

Ask yourself how many transwomen have won gold at the Olympics and then stop worrying about it.

Women's 800 metres, Olympics 2016. The first three winners had XY chromosomes.
Women don't stand a chance in their own sports. It's been going on a while now. And I do worry about it. As do many women. Don't tell me cheating women out of their rightful place is something not to worry about.

Where in the state I live in you could lose custody of your child for giving them gender-affirming care

Giving children puberty blockers / cross sex hormones / pushing them down the surgery path to destroy healthy breasts and genitals, making poor decisions for them that renders them infertile and a life long patient, is a bloody good reason why parents should lose custody of their child. It's child abuse. And needs to be treated as such.

Talking as though being trans is a choice, a trend, something to grow out of etc.

I don’t know about choice etc, but it’s definitely an upwards trend.

Talking as though being trans is a choice, a trend, something to grow out of etc.

Because some of us recognise ourselves as the kids that did grow out of it; because we know kids now who say they are trans and it doesn't stack up; because detransitioners and research tell us this.

allDMH17

So you recognize that your views on trans people and those who are gender non-conforming people align with people who are radically right-leaning and conservative and these are people you would disagree with on any other perspective except for this one.

I am so tired of seeing this hyperbolic, infantile trope.

Those who deploy it seem to get their rhetoric from social media where that trope is rolled out constantly. I am sure it sounds much better there than it does in real life where people can answer in more than constrained character numbers.

Shall we start listing all the people that are aligned with progressing the rights for male to access those rights set aside for females to counter sexist discrimination due to having sexed bodies?

Shall we start with those who really progressed queer theory? Foucault who actively fought for and was part of the group that successfully had the age of consent lowered in France? I’d go look them up if you have not seen the recent news from France on the topic.

Shall we post the quotes about females from males who are considered prominent in activism now, and these are quotes from after they have transitioned? They are delightful insights into how these people really feel about females.

Shall we discuss one of Diva’s 2020 top 100 lesbians who is a male who campaigns for the legalisation of extreme porn and the lowering of the legal age of porn actors? Who also stated that it was female’s eggshell skulls that were the issue that men were being charged with murdering their wives? Who also stated that the reason females were not dying of covid in numbers as high as males was because males were out there working?

Shall we discuss the trans ‘influencers’ who mocked female toilet habits and sounds earlier this year? Apparently, it is not just about wanting to pee. Because they now can have a great laugh about the sounds female’s peeing makes. At least one of them was also heavily involved in the sexual harassment of a female via Twitter.

We can discuss the activist group who let smoke bombs off in Grenfell to intimidate women meeting to discuss the implications of policies on women’s rights? The violence outside other meeting venues?

Are you happy with the activities of other aligned groups such as ANTIFA? Totally comfortable with them?

We can certainly keep on going.

You tell us that our views are problematic because of the people who have similar views. It is a very narrow point of view because I doubt you would consider the same said about you and the people who share your views.

There are many issues and points of view that people can agree with, that align, while vehemently disagreeing on many others. That is part of being a mature person with nuanced thoughts.

Please stop using that ridiculous’you are aligned with’ crap. It is a very foolish person who cannot see the unassailable hypocrisy of that tactic.

I don't understand why people fighting for trans rights (which is a totally fair and right thing to fight for) don't denounce rapists and violent men who suddenly declare themselves trans.

They can’t because of their Self ID doctrine. Which is what has caused the whole dispute. If we went back to medically diagnosed and treated transsexualism and dysphoria, they wouldn’t have to accept the rapists and violent men under their umbrella and we wouldn’t have an issue.

Unfortunately, a faction within the TRA camp are pursuing Self ID for a reason.

I think anybody with mature self-awareness and an ounce of empathy worries about being wrong, but it really doesn't take a whole lot of reading and critical thinking to see through TRA arguments. What's frustrating, in thread after thread here, is watching them get caught in a loop, like the spinning ball of death on a computer.

OP are you DMH17? it's a very similar writing style indeed.

You got a bit lost in translation answering your own questions, I've never heard of Rand Paul, a Marjorie Taylor Greene, or a Greg Abbott. I'm assuming they are very Right wing but GC views in the UK come from across a wide political spectrum, many from the Leftwing.

You might want to catch up @DMH17, there has been the beginnings of a big sea change in the US over the last few weeks. I follow a lot of fitness and health channels. Many have been asked by their followers for their opinions on Laurel Hubbard. So far everyone I've seen has said they support the rights of trans people to live as they want but that biology is real and anyone who's been through male puberty should not be competing in women's sports. And that's without the sudden shock many people have experienced following what happened in the WiSpa.

Even before now, I don't think the huge community of almost exclusively black American women on Lipstick Alley are right wing conservatives? Have you heard of intersectionality? Listening to marginalised voices? Like those of black American women? You should get out of your privileged bubble and give it a go.

I have these moments. Partly who we stand beside but also some of the way GC feminists sound like homophobes of the '70's.

Talking as though being trans is a choice, a trend, something to grow out of etc.

I think sometimes we pick or frame the wrong 'enemy'. The enemy is men who would use trans rights to get access to women's spaces. It's not trans people.

I don't understand why people fighting for trans rights (which is a totally fair and right thing to fight for) don't denounce rapists and violent men who suddenly declare themselves trans.

Hands up who subscribes to Jammidodger on youtube....

I think it’s good to question any issue or belief you feel strongly about. In answering your doubts you can reaffirm why you hold the convictions you hold. Blind faith/belief is often dangerous.

I did initially, but all the rape and death threats put paid to that. Plus being doxxed, having my accounts hacked and being stalked on social media.

Nope. Perfectly comfortable with my stance thanks.

I would just like to offer my support OP. Personally, I think it is always good to question one's thinking. Helps test your rationale. Doubt can advance debate. But I am really sorry you do not have people to talk to about this. The one positive contribution I can make is to say that I came to this debate relatively recently (around nine months ago) and I have noticed a huge shift in that time, with the suppression of debate becoming less and less effective. By comparison this topic is coming into the light.

Nope, definitely not the baddies. What do I see from TRAs and gender ideologists? Demands to colonise women’s spaces and women’s language. An undercurrent of homophobia while tailgating the gay rights movement. Using children as a human shield. And, to back up their demands, arguments that are on a spectrum that starts at “why can’t you just be nice”, traverses incoherent comparisons with different species of fish, and ends at “die in a grease fire”.

Oh, and there are certainly lefty Americans who think gender ideology is harmful nonsense. Check out Drs Bret Weinstein and Heather Heying. HTH

Sometimes I do question my beliefs on this issue but that’s not a bad thing. Janice Turner described how holding GC views puts you outside your political tribe and I totally agree with that.

I’m straight down the line left wing on every issue bar this one and sometimes seeing myself aligned with people like Liz Truss does feel very, very strange.

I don't mind walls of text if they're worthwhile. All I have time for on this particular wall is:

As far as the left in the US is concerned, where we are dealing with wave after wave of anti-trans and homophobic bills. Where in the state I live in you could lose custody of your child for giving them gender-affirming care.

You're dealing with politicians who want to keep female sports for females, i.e., people who haven't been give the strength and other advantages that male puberty gives to athletes; and for "healthcare" to first do no harm, particularly when it comes to messing with the health of children. I'm American, btw, and throwing Rand Paul in as a scarecrow doesn't scare me. Tribal politics are part of the problem, not the solution.

Let's do something that has no impact on my life, but it will make my trans colleagues feel comfortable and accepted.

Pronouns do have an impact.

Ask yourself how many transwomen have won gold at the Olympics and then stop worrying about it.

Ask yourself why you have so little empathy for women at the top of their game who will increasingly be supplanted by mediocre males.

Hells teeth just scroll,on past

You are the baddie. Whoooooooo

I peaked back in 2016 and can honestly say - no, not once

Since then, things have become more and more apparent: the gay and ASD children being transitioned in huge number, the sexual abusers using the movement as a cover, the similarity with other social contagions like anorexia and DID, the realisation of AGP as a motivation for transition, now even highly muscular men competing in the Olympics alongside biological women!

The whole thing was highly suspect to begin with (peaked as a teenage lesbian because of cotton ceiling rhetoric, which is still going on) but the amount of crazy goings-on in the past 5 years really squash any remaining ideas about transgenderism being the reasonable civil rights project it claims to be. I've never had anyone from that side answer the 'what is a woman' or 'what is gender' questions when asked in good faith, and I think that says everything I need to know

allDMH17
the stats that exist show that transwomen pose no threat to women in women's spaces

The recent judgement regarding transwomen in UK prisons judicial review would disagree. It was accepted that introducing transwomen to the women's estate increases the risk of sexual assault for the female inmates and increases their fear and trauma.