An inclusive way to be gender critical?

What should they use? Men's toilets? They are far more at risk in there.

Incidentally, I agree with a third "mixed" space. This would allow for the likes of me who wouldn't have a problem sharing a toilet with a transwoman, and trans, to use the toilets together.

I don't disagree with the concept. I disagree with the manner off attempting to achieve it.

And, quite simply, because there is nothing other than a group of women online campaigning against them and ridiculing and mocking the concept they live by, to stop them.

I was being polite with misquote. Deliberately goading is nearer the mark.

So why do they use female toilets?

But it's not a 'misquote'.

Re my motto - it is , when there's a series of complete spectacular made up misquotes.

I have nothing to hide, you can read what I said and what was quoted.
If you can find me one where you can correct me that I did in fact say that (my particular favourite was the one where it was said I implied men would rape women if they didn't let them in, when I said absolutely jack shit of the sort), I will obviously rethink my motto.

Thanks for adding on things you've made up there, again.

I don't have a low opinion of transwomen, and all your reverse psychology in the world won't work on me.

My point was, which I have spelled out many times, and I'll be told off in a minute for derailing while someone ignores the fact I've been misquoted and asked the same question 23 times, is that if we want to overcome the issue, WE NEED TO WORK TOGETHER. As it stands , you have no way of policing it and no way of knowing who is trans and who isn't. All of this hand wringing about the future state of toilets being taken over by crowds of transwomen - you could well ahve been using toilets with transwomen for a long time and realistically you will never know.

My point was, to make this work, you need transwomen to understand the point, and not feel isolated.

Note - just because a few people on Mumsnet said it, doesn't make it right.

The day where transwomen will think I won't use that toilet because people don't want me to , I saw it online and I am less important so I'll do as they say, is nowhere near now.

Double note - I agree with single sex spaces. What I fundamentally disagree with is the way in which "some" posters are going about it, which is effectively bullying out transwomen with a good dose of emotive "oh imagine men not respecting our boundaries, bla bla".

I didn't say anything like that.

Seems to be your motto!

As we are taught from being children, stamping your feet and saying NO BECAUSE I SAID SO has never worked.

That's right, which is why it will have to be done through the courts instead, where they seem able to see through the deliberate misrepresentations of the arguments to the crux of the issue.

What I find hard to comprehend is why people are so passionate in segregating themselves from men and transwomen and berating these groups and then wondering why 'some' transwomen are not on side.

You asked why I mentioned 'men'? I was responding to this post of yours.

Do why do they do it?

Transwomen get up in the morning and think oh I know what I'll do, I'll go and use that toilet I'm not supposed to, and wind up some women.

Because it's all about women.

"BUt then this is a circular argument, because before long one of the main gang will be along to tell me that it's not their job to have techniques because transwomen should just do as they bloody well said, because they said so, and if they don't well that just proves that men don't respect boundaries."

and right on cue.

I didn't say anything like that.

I mean you can be right, and women women women, but you still are no closer to banning transwomen from your toilets, and I'll be utterly staggered if it is managed in my life time.

As we are taught from being children, stamping your feet and saying NO BECAUSE I SAID SO has never worked.

As transwomen are well aware what sex they are I would assume that using female toilets is a deliberate decision to use a space not designated for them and if there is some criticism of that , well it is hardly surprising ?

My point was, if they want transwomen not to use the bathroom, they are not painting themselves in a manner that supports their cause - I can fully imagine that if I was a transwoman I would stop reading halfway through considering some of the sheer bile and rudeness.

& think...'well nuts to those bilious rude bitches, I'm totally going to head straight for their spaces despite it being spelled out to me that they really, really don't want me there'.

I stand by my earlier comment. You've a depressingly low opinion of transwomen.

The current stance is literally women saying "NO YOU CAN'T" while transwomen walk in because not only is there no way to police this, it isn't law, it isn't anything really, it's just a group of women online telling them they can't.

My point was, if they want transwomen not to use the bathroom, they are not painting themselves in a manner that supports their cause.

You've put your finger on it - rude, unruly Women are the problem here. If only they would be a bit nicer and kinder it would all be alright. What a shame.

Doesn't mean I don't agree with single sex spaces.

I do think it's OK for women to have female only spaces. Yes.

But simultaneously, I think that the way in which women (or rather some of the women on these threads) speak about this issue will do more to deepen the divide between feminists and (many) trans people.

Nothing to do with upsetting transwomen, and I've n idea why you've mentioned men because that's a separate issue entirely.

I didn't say they might not be happy about it. I said you are relying on them to stay out, by basically berating them, bullying them and shouting louder than them.

Not the technique I would use

BUt then this is a circular argument, because before long one of the main gang will be along to tell me that it's not their job to have techniques because transwomen should just do as they bloody well said, because they said so, and if they don't well that just proves that men don't respect boundaries.

The sad thing is people really, really can't see it.

No, neither are mine. And they have about as much interest as violating women as flying to the moon.

Answer; 99.9% of all sex offences are committed by people born male.
86% of all violent offences also male born people. Transwomen as likely as other males to commit such crimes.

Yes, and it's an issue of privacy and dignity as well as safety. Women's feelings should matter as much as those of male people, whatever their gender identity.

So you do accept that male people are dangerous in places where women are vulnerable?

You aren't making much sense, Rooty, to be fair.

You think it's ok for women to have female only spaces - but you simultaneously think that if we 'segregate' ourselves then that might upset transwomen. Oh, & also men.

These 'groups' might then not be very happy about it & not feel inclined to respect our spaces.

In my experience, the transwomen I know aren't disrespectful of women's single sex spaces, I'm happy to say.

Corvus -

The one about the implied threat. I said nothing of the sort.

My point was, however right women think they are, as it stands, they have no control over who goes into their bathrooms. What they are relying on is transwomen not going in , and respecting how they feel on this.

The current stance is literally women saying "NO YOU CAN'T" while transwomen walk in because not only is there no way to police this, it isn't law, it isn't anything really, it's just a group of women online telling them they can't.

My point was, if they want transwomen not to use the bathroom, they are not painting themselves in a manner that supports their cause - I can fully imagine that if I was a transwoman I would stop reading halfway through considering some of the sheer bile and rudeness.

I said nothing about rape, violence, or anything else. Because in the real world, not on MN where if anyone dares mention that women can't just say NO to whatever they like and people must do it, orhterwise they are implying rape, not everything relates to that.

Two supporting misquotes of my posts in two minutes, after you weren't engaging with me any further.

[quote RootyT00t]@CorvusPurpureus I didn't say anything like that. I'd appreciate it you'd stop completely misquoting me.[/quote]
I'm terribly sorry if I misquoted you - specify & I'll correct it.

What I find hard to comprehend is why people are so passionate in segregating themselves from men and transwomen and berating these groups and then wondering why 'some' transwomen are not on side.

Answer; 99.9% of all sex offences are committed by people born male.
86% of all violent offences also male born people. Transwomen as likely as other males to commit such crimes.

Well bugger me, an implied threat that some males will decide to ignore female boundaries AND be more inclined to do so if the women are outspoken in telling them NO.

Yeah, I'm incredibly tired of this shit

Yep, me too.