An inclusive way to be gender critical?

This is why I find strength in and advocate diplomacy over being adversarial

Good luck with that.....

This is pointless.

I get the impression that you really want to be kind and you really don't want to face the reality that an awful lot of people aren't.

*Maybe. But why do they want to occupy our safe spaces? Is it because their's are unsafe? Tackle this and our safe spaces remain safe8

Is it the job of women to tackle this on behalf of other groups? Really?

How about trans people campaign for their own third spaces and provisions. Bingo! no conflict!

Or rather, I think we can publicly say it's bollocks, and let people see it and decide for themselves if it's bollocks.

The working definition does not have to include the size of the box - it does not have to be restrictive and narrow

You seem to be saying that the bandwidth of gender should be expanded, to the point, it seems to me, that gender no longer exists......is meaningless?

I agree! Isn't that what feminism and gay rights were always about?

The issue is that trans activists want to suggest that gender is a determinate, rather fixed thing........and that rather fixed thing is the determiner of an indidual's sex. And as that is logically fallible, the argument then suggests that sex does not really exist at all -or that sex has nothing to do with gender.

You know it all sounds confused, and so do many of your points so far. I'm not sure what it is you are trying to achieve?On one hand you say there needs to be a counter force of equal ferocity, then you suggest non aggression.........

I'm honestly still not clear what the aggression is that we're being warned against. I see women speaking politely and assertively. I don't see aggression. What is is we have to stop doing?

I generally see myself a bit like you describe yourself - choosing diplomacy, ideas, tackling issues side-on. I think there is absolutely a place for that. However, I think it only works against good-faith opponents, where you think there's a good chance you can genuinely get to the nub of the issue together and make progress. With this issue, I don't think that applies. Every ordinary person in Britain knows that there are two sexes and that the rest is enjoyable fluff. They are largely unaware of what's been going on. They largely believe that this is about a small number of distressed transsexuals. Rather than involve ourselves in arcane debates within the framework of gender ideology, thereby lending it credence while keeping the actual issues shrouded in obscurity, I believe we need to step aside from the whole idea and let it step into the light and give it enough rope to hang itself. (Metaphor, obviously, not some veiled threat to trans people...)

Of course, I have said so, haven't I?

Then I am still at a loss to understand exactly where you are coming from and why you are advocating diplomacy and not upsetting anyone AND keeping women-only spaces. Diplomacy is not keeping our women-only spaces. They are disappearing before our eyes.

This is why I find strength in and advocate diplomacy over being adversarial.

You have said that you believe in diplomacy and playing the long game and that it may take a long time. Do you think while we are waiting for that we might be allowed to protect women-only spaces?

Men's spaces aren't unsafe. Find me any police-confirmed example of a man dressed as a woman (drag queen) or a MTF trans person who has been physically attacked in a men's room. There are several examples of their being attacked in and around women's restrooms, but not men's. If we were going by safety, MTFs are safer in the men's room.

Tackle this and our safe spaces remain safe.

You keep on saying this and people keep on telling you that it is only a small part of a bigger picture. It would not solve the problem. You have not stumbled on a solution.

It is unsafe to be amongst males? For men and women?

Surely it cannot be news to you that men overwhelmingly commit the majority of violence? Women have separate spaces to allow us to live, as far as possible, in safety. (For example, charities campaign for separate bathrooms for women in third world countries because they recognise that without them women cannot participate safely in every day life. The same bathrooms that were set up here by women wanting the same goal - which now are being opened up to men). We do not exclude men from our bathrooms because we think all males are violent but because most violence is committed by men. Of course, males (include transgendered males) are on the whole stronger and larger than women which means that they are also more likely to be able to defend themselves successfully compared to the average woman.

But why do they want to occupy our safe spaces? Is it because their's are unsafe? Tackle this and our safe spaces remain safe.

I think this is begging the question. You have assumed they want to occupy our spaces because they are safe.

I tend towards thinking they want to occupy our spaces because they want to occupy our spaces. Safe or unsafe.

I'll take it at face value and assume you are serious. It is not a who, it is maths. Statistics. What is my chance of being attacked? What is your chance of being attacked? What is my partners chance of being attacked? It can be worked out. You look at the poulation and look at the number violent crimes committed. You can crunch numbers across a population to get all sorts of information
There are statistics that look at the likelyhood of being attacked based on being a citizen of the UK, being male, being female, being trans. It can be broken down by type of crime, by perpetrator, by victim, by reported crime, by convictions. You can also look at prison data.

The UK shows men are the more likely to be victims of violent crime but also more likely to be perpetrators of violent crime than women. Trans women fall in between men and women as victims, but are as likely as men to be perpetrators of violent crime as men (I think the sexual crime and domestic crime trend is reversed ). You can work out these trends(until people start muddying the date by recording trans women as female and then you can no longer tell) So yes, Trans women would be safer in female spaces, but they are at no more risk than other males in male spaces, where as women would be significantly less safe if their single sex spaces became gender neutral.

However, I think the solution involves the whole of society and think this is what we have to engage with.

I agree but your solutions do not seem to take into account the power imbalance between the sexes. As others have pointed out, you are coming at this from the point of view that women are universally respected and listened to. Sadly this is not the case. Just look at the different ways women and men have been admonished or attacked for talking about this issue "diplomatically".

Which means making male spaces safer not giving up women's spaces.

I'm glad to hear you say this but I'm not sure it's in our power to make male spaces safer ... that's down to men. What we can do is bring up our children to be welcoming of non gender conforming people. This is a long term strategy but the threat to women's spaces is here now. We have to stand together to protect them.

Sorry that should have said *than the average person