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Original poster

An inclusive way to be gender critical?

882 replies

pensivepigeon · 27/02/2021 07:57

My thoughts on gender and sex are thus:

Gender is a social construct. It is how society and individuals view the presentation of the sexes - in fashion, interests and work roles. Whereas sex is biological, we cannot change it even though we might surgically change our appearance and take artificial hormones which affect our bodily functions.

However because gender is a social construct and we are part of society we can define it. I define gender as

Female = adhering or not adhering to traditional stereotypes regarding names, fashion, interests and work roles.
Male= adhering or not adhering to traditional stereotypes regarding names, fashion, interests and work roles.

If everyone took this on board it would mean safe single sex spaces could be preserved, as people could present themselves however they want, wear what they want but use the single sex space appropriate for their sex without conflict. Uniforms would offer everyone both traditional female and male options which either sex could wear. Ditto with sports, competing takes place within the appropriate sex classes but competitors can wear either the traditional male or female competition uniforms. There would be no confusion and need to agonise over language when providing medical care.

Taking this stance stance means I have no problem when it comes to saying I am of female sex with a female gender.

So am I gender critical? Is this inclusive?

OP posts:
JorjaSays · 27/02/2021 21:50

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Original poster
pensivepigeon · 27/02/2021 21:46

So leaving it to other people then

The conflict, yes, I'm afraid so. But I will do what I can to protect the innocent when it up to me and have done successfully several times in my lifetime. However, this was done through diplomacy and utilised existing channels. Conflict and brute force did not play a part in achieving this success.

OP posts:
AdHominemNonSequitur · 27/02/2021 21:36

So leaving it to other people then

Original poster
pensivepigeon · 27/02/2021 21:35

My plan is simply engaging with the people and real life situations within my path in a manner consistent with the approach I have outlined. It doesn't take much forethought when the approach is an internalised one.

OP posts:
AdHominemNonSequitur · 27/02/2021 21:30

OP. Could I ask what diplomatic things you have done/are doing/plan to do to implement your..erm... nuanced highly evolved counter approach to resolving the gender stalemate?

Original poster
pensivepigeon · 27/02/2021 21:20

It seems like a step backwards to me to talk about "female interests" or "work roles" etc.

I suggest talking about them because they are being talked about. If we dismiss the conversation in an overly abrupt manner it only adds fuel to the fire and promotes more controversy.

OP posts:
Original poster
pensivepigeon · 27/02/2021 21:15

I would say that your posts are rather confusing. It is difficult to understand whether your appeal for diplomacy is limited to mumsnet forums, chats with friends or wider society. People (me included) have explained why diplomacy hasn't worked and isn't working to protect women's rights in our society but you now seem to be saying that you were talking about responses on mumsnet. This is why people are confused.

Diplomacy everywhere unless directly in defence of someone vulnerable where there is no time for diplomacy, i.e. an emergency situation. Just because people have explained why they think diplomacy hasn't worked doesn't mean I agree with them and say oh, sorry, diplomacy is crap you are completely correct. I still maintain and would stress its value even if it takes a long time and is difficult. Just because I understand your point but disagree doesn't make me confused,

OP posts:
Gerla · 27/02/2021 21:11

Anyway, I have to go now OP. So in the spirit of diplomacy and not seeming too abrupt - have a nice evening. It was good to chat with you despite our differing opinions.

AllFrightOnTheNight · 27/02/2021 21:10

Female = adhering or not adhering to traditional stereotypes regarding names, fashion, interests and work roles.
Male= adhering or not adhering to traditional stereotypes regarding names, fashion, interests and work roles

This is nonsense, IMO. What are traditional "male" (or "female") interests? Work roles? There are plenty of male nurses, teachers, etc etc- traditional "female" roles. And vice versa.

We'd be better off teaching children that men and woman can be anything, present as they like and that "boy things" and "Girl things" are just nonsense. It seems like a step backwards to me to talk about "female interests" or "work roles" etc.

Gerla · 27/02/2021 21:07

A thread in a safe discussion place, such as this, with someone being clearly pretty moderate shouldn't illicit adversarial responses or comments regarding their intelligence/naivety.

Yes, it's true that people can be very abrupt and sometimes people are quick to pounce rather than explain their point of view. However, I would say that your posts are rather confusing. It is difficult to understand whether your appeal for diplomacy is limited to mumsnet forums, chats with friends or wider society. People (me included) have explained why diplomacy hasn't worked and isn't working to protect women's rights in our society but you now seem to be saying that you were talking about responses on mumsnet. This is why people are confused.

Original poster
pensivepigeon · 27/02/2021 21:02

There is a difference between sinking to their level and letting them trample all over you.

I manage not to.

OP posts:
Original poster
pensivepigeon · 27/02/2021 21:00

@bourbonne , thank you.

OP posts:
bourbonne · 27/02/2021 20:59

@Gerla

Or rather - there is nothing wrong with standing up for yourself. Be too diplomatic and you will find no-one will respect you.
This is very true. I would love it if people.in positions of power made decisions based on merit and logic. Unfortunately, it's a fact of life that they very often just want to avoid pissing off those who shout the loudest. I don't literally want to go about shouting loudly and it's not in my nature, but you do have to make your presence felt and stand your ground clearly, else you will find you have diplomatically ushered yourself out of the building and into the cold.
Original poster
pensivepigeon · 27/02/2021 20:59

Be too diplomatic and you will find no-one will respect you.

I have not found that to be a problem.

OP posts:
Meceme · 27/02/2021 20:58

Diplomacy only works when both parties have equal power and status. Unfortunately that is not the case for most women in our society.

Original poster
pensivepigeon · 27/02/2021 20:58

Women are judged far more harshly for speaking up for themselves than men are so maybe you should ask yourself if you are doing the same?

I don't judge women more harshly than men in this.

OP posts:
Original poster
pensivepigeon · 27/02/2021 20:56

I think it is very important to reserve adversarial behaviour only to situations which absolutely require it in order to defend the vulnerable where there is no other alternative. A thread in a safe discussion place, such as this, with someone being clearly pretty moderate shouldn't illicit adversarial responses or comments regarding their intelligence/naivety. I think too many people are a bit too 'trigger happy' with this style of rhetoric, on here and in real life. It hinders discussion and creates division where there was none previously.

OP posts:
Justhadathought · 27/02/2021 20:55

I don't think they are. They are simply nuanced

Nuance is fine if you live in a world of one. If you want others to understand you have to be clearer. You really are not making any sense, and your goals seem shifting and uncertain - based on 'nuanced' feelings....

Gerla · 27/02/2021 20:53

Or rather - there is nothing wrong with standing up for yourself. Be too diplomatic and you will find no-one will respect you.

bourbonne · 27/02/2021 20:51

@pensivepigeon ah, that makes sense. I think on this board there are unfortunately people who drop in to troll, and it can be quite subtle to the untrained eye, which I think can lead to a slightly prickly atmosphere sometimes. I remember a thread that started off as basically "I'm a TW, can't we all make peace and get along?" which immediately got a load of hostile responses that baffled me. Turned out it was a troll who was posting screenshots of this forum on Twitter, boasting about winding us up. That was not a one-off either.

In real life, I doubt many, or any, people take that tack. In fact many of us are scared to say a single word on the topic! There's a lot of diplomacy and careful conversations happening around dinner tables and so on.

MissBarbary · 27/02/2021 20:50

I'm probably just thick but I'm also probably the least gender critical poster on here but I'm struggling to follow your points.

Gerla · 27/02/2021 20:50

I face it every day. I don't have to sink to their level.

There is a difference between sinking to their level and letting them trample all over you.

Gerla · 27/02/2021 20:49

When I clearly agree with the GC standpoint on lots of issues.

I still don't understand what it is that you don't agree with re: feminists. It just seems to be that sometimes they are too direct/aggressive. I think this is partly gender again! Women are judged far more harshly for speaking up for themselves than men are so maybe you should ask yourself if you are doing the same? In any case, yes it is true that some people find feminists standing up for women as off-putting and this is a problem. However, not being assertive is also penalised. It's not easy at all.

Original poster
pensivepigeon · 27/02/2021 20:48

You know it all sounds confused, and so do many of your points so far

I don't think they are. They are simply nuanced,

OP posts:
Original poster
pensivepigeon · 27/02/2021 20:46

I get the impression that you really want to be kind and you really don't want to face the reality that an awful lot of people aren't.

I face it every day. I don't have to sink to their level.

OP posts:
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