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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

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Original poster

An inclusive way to be gender critical?

882 replies

pensivepigeon · 27/02/2021 07:57

My thoughts on gender and sex are thus:

Gender is a social construct. It is how society and individuals view the presentation of the sexes - in fashion, interests and work roles. Whereas sex is biological, we cannot change it even though we might surgically change our appearance and take artificial hormones which affect our bodily functions.

However because gender is a social construct and we are part of society we can define it. I define gender as

Female = adhering or not adhering to traditional stereotypes regarding names, fashion, interests and work roles.
Male= adhering or not adhering to traditional stereotypes regarding names, fashion, interests and work roles.

If everyone took this on board it would mean safe single sex spaces could be preserved, as people could present themselves however they want, wear what they want but use the single sex space appropriate for their sex without conflict. Uniforms would offer everyone both traditional female and male options which either sex could wear. Ditto with sports, competing takes place within the appropriate sex classes but competitors can wear either the traditional male or female competition uniforms. There would be no confusion and need to agonise over language when providing medical care.

Taking this stance stance means I have no problem when it comes to saying I am of female sex with a female gender.

So am I gender critical? Is this inclusive?

OP posts:

bourbonne · 01/03/2021 13:39

It all sounds a bit Genderbread Person, or Mermaids' Barbie to GI Joe spectrum.

Justhadathought · 01/03/2021 13:29

I'm really aiming about getting more moderate people who might sympathise with the trans cause but consider themselves feminist onside. That way the more radical minority have no audience or sway

Most people here have empathy for those suffering dysphoria and dysmorphia, what they disagree with, though, is the concept of 'being trans', which implies being 'trapped in the wrong body'.

Dysmorphia and dysphoria are mental health/emotional health issues and as such should be treated as such. It is wrong to to peddle damaging narratives to children and young people who are struggling with themselves and their lives; many of whom will turn out to be gay or lesbian, and many of whom are autistic.

Justhadathought · 01/03/2021 13:25

Then one way to tackle this is to redefine gender (as we are part of society, all you need is a big enough consensus) so it is no longer restrictive

Even better do away with gender. And just be yourself. You will still be in a sexed body, though.

Justhadathought · 01/03/2021 13:23

There will still be sex, though......no matter how you fiddle around with your boxes, that still exists. Sex exists in the measurable world; it is not a feeling, or a set of social constructs; even though they come to be attached to it.

Justhadathought · 01/03/2021 13:21

trans movement

Justhadathought · 01/03/2021 13:21

By widening the gender boxes so there ceases to be divisions (over what is seen as normative or feminine/masculine) left, gender will cease to be a problem. It would simply put circle around one of those 'gender' scales so it is no longer seen as a scale and more just pictures of people in different clothes with different hairstyles. So there will be no need to suggest gender is a problem because it won't be

That's been going on for decades already......it is nothing new. That is what the both the women's and the gay liberation movements were about. We've been there and done that.....what we have now with the grans movement is actually regressive......

Original poster

pensivepigeon · 01/03/2021 11:36

Got to love a bit of 'Yes Minister'!

OP posts:

CoffeeTeaChocolate · 01/03/2021 11:30

m.youtube.com/watch?v=37iHSwA1SwE

I think this is what OP is aiming at. Watch this “yes minister” clip.

replace (in your head) European Union with gender ideology, foreign office with GC women, civil service with feminists and the various countries with the 109 (or whatever) different genders...

Original poster

pensivepigeon · 01/03/2021 11:28

@JustTurtlesAllTheWayDown

I'm really aiming about getting more moderate people who might sympathise with the trans cause but consider themselves feminist onside. That way the more radical minority have no audience or sway.

OP posts:

ChancesWhatChances · 01/03/2021 11:22

@JustTurtlesAllTheWayDown trans people don’t give a crap about being inclusive of women’s rights. Not one iota. They would be very happy to abolish women’s rights (and replace them with trans rights that include women not being allowed any safe spaces away from them).

JustTurtlesAllTheWayDown · 01/03/2021 11:20

I haven't RTFT but it's occurred to me that a huge part of the problem is that while we're on here constantly arguing debating how we can work it out so that laws and society are inclusive of trans people at the same time as ensuring women's rights are upheld, I have never seen any post on here, twitter, reddit or elsewhere by a trans activist asking how they can make sure they're being inclusive of women's rights.
It's always so one-sided.

Original poster

pensivepigeon · 01/03/2021 11:13

And I suppose I could offer my services to the cause in boring dissenters to death!

OP posts:

Original poster

pensivepigeon · 01/03/2021 11:11

As I said in my initial posts, gender is defined by society. If people are finding gender restrictive within a climate of a huge societal interest over it, then one way to tackle this is to redefine gender (as we are part of society, all you need is a big enough consensus) so it is no longer restrictive. It can be easier to steer discussion sometimes than silence it. Conversely sometimes the steering ends up resulting in silence. Both can be good.

OP posts:

Original poster

pensivepigeon · 01/03/2021 11:04

and by that definition it isn't untrue - and that way nobody will get upset at the thought of you stridently suggesting that gender itself is the problem

OP posts:

Original poster

pensivepigeon · 28/02/2021 21:35

OP posts:

Justhadathought · 28/02/2021 20:31

No, because this creates further division. We need to protect each other. These people are people's children

I get it; you are really a comedian. haha!

AradiaGC · 28/02/2021 19:54

@Justhadathought

What the thread boils down to is the suggestion that if only women would stop being aggressive & oppositional, they could re-frame their thinking; their conceptual understanding, and their experience of what it is to be a woman; to be female; and bring it more into line with what many trans people would like, the problem might be resolved.

It feels very much like this. Why can't you just agree that your gender matches your sex and keep them happy? You'll know that you're redefining 'gender' to mean 'any possible combination of human qualities and personality traits, whether traditionally masculine or feminine', and by that definition it isn't untrue - and that way nobody will get upset at the thought of you stridently suggesting that gender itself is the problem. Find a way to fit in with their ideology, don't cause conflict!

MaudTheInvincible · 28/02/2021 19:46

Do you really not see that the conflict that you are arguing against could so easily be resolved if trans people campaigned for their own services and provisions, just like every other marginalised group has had to do.

Exactly. Don't just take another group's provision, because that is not kind, or right, or fair.

Original poster

pensivepigeon · 28/02/2021 19:03

OP posts:

CoffeeTeaChocolate · 28/02/2021 19:02

@Justhadathought

So sorry, but I think you miss how effective this can be. This is how we need to argue with the frequent flyers. Exactly like this. And we need to throw in a few “yes dear”, “your feelings are completely valid” and “how many genders do you have - we will validate all of them”.

And then we go back to discussing single sex spaces. I think the rage that will follow will get some people deleted.

Original poster

pensivepigeon · 28/02/2021 19:02

No, because this creates further division. We need to protect each other. These people are people's children.

OP posts:

Justhadathought · 28/02/2021 19:00

Hmm, really

Yes, really!

Justhadathought · 28/02/2021 18:59

Fine. But what about 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th etc ad infinitum...for the multitude of (non conforming) genders there are

Being non conforming is absolutely no issue. But people use the provision that is available for their sex, or else a third space.......if they feel that they need a more safe space away from potentially aggressive males. This really is for these gender identity people to create and push for themselves though.

Original poster

pensivepigeon · 28/02/2021 18:55

Your sentences of full of illogical inconsistencies - which one has to conclude reflects your muddled thinking.

Hmm, really....

OP posts:

Original poster

pensivepigeon · 28/02/2021 18:53

Erm...no

As, many have commented. TRAs would not like my stance all all, which is largely gender critical, albeit in a quieter less confrontational way.

Third spaces and provisions, pigeon. Please discuss.......

Fine. But what about 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th etc ad infinitum...for the multitude of (non conforming) genders there are?

OP posts:

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