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Original poster

An inclusive way to be gender critical?

882 replies

pensivepigeon · 27/02/2021 07:57

My thoughts on gender and sex are thus:

Gender is a social construct. It is how society and individuals view the presentation of the sexes - in fashion, interests and work roles. Whereas sex is biological, we cannot change it even though we might surgically change our appearance and take artificial hormones which affect our bodily functions.

However because gender is a social construct and we are part of society we can define it. I define gender as

Female = adhering or not adhering to traditional stereotypes regarding names, fashion, interests and work roles.
Male= adhering or not adhering to traditional stereotypes regarding names, fashion, interests and work roles.

If everyone took this on board it would mean safe single sex spaces could be preserved, as people could present themselves however they want, wear what they want but use the single sex space appropriate for their sex without conflict. Uniforms would offer everyone both traditional female and male options which either sex could wear. Ditto with sports, competing takes place within the appropriate sex classes but competitors can wear either the traditional male or female competition uniforms. There would be no confusion and need to agonise over language when providing medical care.

Taking this stance stance means I have no problem when it comes to saying I am of female sex with a female gender.

So am I gender critical? Is this inclusive?

OP posts:
Original poster
pensivepigeon · 02/03/2021 11:39

But gender still doesn't affect biological sex?

OP posts:
DadJoke · 02/03/2021 11:37

No one is forcing anyone to "believe" in something just because it's been established, accepted and researched by all reputable national and international psychological bodies. The analogy isn't people's private belief in God, but people's private belief that climate change isn't real. You be you.

This is a good place to start with the actual evidence. This is a good summary of the research, including a discussion on heretability.

research.vu.nl/ws/portalfiles/portal/83595397/Polderman2018_Article_TheBiologicalContributionsToGe.pdf

Original poster
pensivepigeon · 02/03/2021 11:30

Sorry bold fail. First paragraph in bold.

OP posts:
Original poster
pensivepigeon · 02/03/2021 11:29

The psychological and medical consensus on gender identity is not "post-modernism," any more than the consensus on sexuality is. Denying it requires an ideological commitment against the evidence.

@DadJoke, correct me if I'm wrong, though, people's gender identity cannot biologically change their physical sex. DNA doesn't get changed because of it. Bodily parts don't lose blood supply and drop off because of it. The body doesn't start manufacturing hormones in vastly different quantities because of it. I mean, I know epigenetics is an emerging science but no one has discovered much of that happening yet.

So sex, as a biological feature of human beings, still remains.

OP posts:
Original poster
pensivepigeon · 02/03/2021 10:53

this thread does hone one's skills, if nothing else

Glad to be of use!Wink

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/03/2021 10:42

And there isn't a consensus on sexuality, either.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biologyanddsexualorientation

Justhadathought · 02/03/2021 10:42

We should set up a double act

Justhadathought · 02/03/2021 10:41

Sorry just my response was not to you

I know! Thanks!

this thread does hone one's skills, if nothing else

Justhadathought · 02/03/2021 10:40

First world problems......

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/03/2021 10:39

Sorry just my response was not to you.

Justhadathought · 02/03/2021 10:39

So much garble and obfuscation.....

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/03/2021 10:38

There is no consensus that "gender identity "works in the same way genderists like you claim it does. The fact that people are aware there are two different types of bodies and they have one of them is hardly Earth-shattering news.

Justhadathought · 02/03/2021 10:38

If a 'gender expression' is just an individual expressing themselves; and if 'a gender identity' is a fixed set of characteristics one feels one has....I'm not sure what either has got to do with anyone else? Just get on with it.

Why all of this long winded, interminable, painful and downright unnecessary desire to force it on the rest of the world?

DadJoke · 02/03/2021 10:30

@Ereshkigalangcleg If they have small gametes they are male, not female. Try a biology textbook before lecturing women with your pomo nonsense.

Sorry - a typo. The psychological and medical consensus on gender identity is not "post-modernism," any more than the consensus on sexuality is. Denying it requires an ideological commitment against the evidence.

Original poster
pensivepigeon · 02/03/2021 10:14

@pensivepigeon you are right. I was making the very narrow point that saying “I am a woman” is not gender expression.

@DadJoke

I just don't get that. How is verbally expressing your gender not a form of gender expression?

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/03/2021 10:05

Things have moved on considerably from the days of a few fully transitioned transexuals; who knew they were not female, and who didn't attempt the enforcement of convoluted mental constructs on the rest of the world.

YY, exactly.

Justhadathought · 02/03/2021 10:05

If this is all just about 'being yourself' in order to live a life free of restrictive stereotypes - then just get on with it. You do not need to enforce a whole world view and its associated ideological and mental constructs on to everyone else.

If you don't feel your demographic is catered for, then campaign for the spaces and services that you feel you need in order to feel safe, and have dignity.

Justhadathought · 02/03/2021 10:02

Women's requirement and need for single sex provisions are not some perceived silly idea to annoy others, if you actually have respect for others and things like intersectionality find a better solution please than trying to argue society into excluding some women from anything so that others can have freedom of choice and preference of spaces. Answers need to work for all

........and we come back to 'Third Spaces'. Use the services and facilities that match your sex, or else campaign for your own special provisions.

Things have moved on considerably from the days of a few fully transitioned transexuals; who knew they were not female, and who didn't attempt the enforcement of convoluted mental constructs on the rest of the world.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/03/2021 09:55

They might also have small gametes and attribute their gender identity to their sex.

If they have small gametes they are male, not female. Try a biology textbook before lecturing women with your pomo nonsense.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/03/2021 09:52

I was making the very narrow point that saying “I am a woman” is not gender expression

Nor is it a gender identity in the specific way TRAs mean.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/03/2021 09:50

Please quote properly, Dadjoke, it's difficult to parse your posts and tell what you are quoting and which are your own words. The MN convention is either to use the quote function or to italicise or bold the text you are quoting. You can do this by putting either * for bold or ^ for italic on either side of the text you wish to quote or otherwise highlight.

DadJoke · 02/03/2021 09:44

@pensivepigeon you are right. I was making the very narrow point that saying “I am a woman” is not gender expression.

Original poster
pensivepigeon · 01/03/2021 20:25

Wouldn't it just, @jellyfrizz ..

OP posts:
jellyfrizz · 01/03/2021 20:24

Anyway, if people agreed with the definition I gave for gender, it just wouldn't matter what people said their gender was.

If only everyone just agreed with everyone else life would be just swell.

Original poster
pensivepigeon · 01/03/2021 20:16

Anyway, if people agreed with the definition I gave for gender, it just wouldn't matter what people said their gender was. An infinite variety of gender expressions would be simply accepted. None of these forms of gender expression would be assigned to a particular sex.

People still might be asked their sex, in certain circumstances, so specialised provision could be made, in terms of biological needs and upholding protected characteristics in law.

OP posts:
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