An inclusive way to be gender critical?

Trans gender people are in a protected class, unlike non trans gender people

You're suggesting that gender reassignment is the only protected characteristic. Which is nonsense.

Why do you write "trans gender" with a space?

Trans gender people are in a protected class, unlike non trans gender people

Stop trying to centre yourself in everything. Women are not "non trans people".

Trans gender people are in a protected class, unlike non trans gender people, but they are who they say they are. "Separate but equal" does not have a storied history

Women are a protected group in the U.k, with protected status in the Equalities Act - which guarantees single sex spaces and services.

Different, but equal is a great principle to strive for. Equality does not mean sameness. It can accommodate difference.

Campaign for your third spaces, services and sporting categories and most of the conflict would cease.

@Justhadathought How can you consider yourself as an ally if you are trying to force something, and manipulate, to get what you want?

I am not forcing anyone to do anything, not am I manipulating anyone. I am putting the evidence out there.

Trans people are trans people; a separate category of person. Campaign for third spaces and provisions, and maybe you'll get more of the support you feel you need.

Trans gender people are in a protected class, unlike non trans gender people, but they are who they say they are. "Separate but equal" does not have a storied history.

should be allies

How can you consider yourself as an ally if you are trying to force something, and manipulate, to get what you want?

Trans people are trans people; a separate category of person. Campaign for third spaces and provisions, and maybe you'll get more of the support you feel you need.

However, bear in mind that most people are totally against pushing children; young gay and lesbian teenagers; and autistic youngsters down a path of medicalisation and surgery in order to confirm a narrative.

I'm not sure DadJoke has any gender identity confusion. He appears to identify very strongly as "man telling the ladies what's what".

Do they understand that women are different to men biologically? If so, they are not.

I slotted this in about being different biologically after I typed the last sentence so it doesn't make sense. Apologies.

To sum up: it is not in the least "intersectional" to seek to deny the axis of oppression that is being biologically female, in favour of pandering to people who don't feel themselves to fit into their biological sex.

*It would be nice if more of this energy was directed there rather than attacking a highly oppressed minority who are in the most danger, and should be allies8

It would be nice if you campaigned for your own spaces, services and categories...just like other groups have had to do. Nobody wants anyone to feel unsafe or oppressed........do they?

If you listen, you can hear what women are telling you. They are telling you that they value, need and require the spaces and services that they have; that they find it offensive to try to suggest that being a woman is just a feeling in someone's mind; that women must change the language that they use to describe their own experience; that other groups must be centred in their spaces.....

If you identified with rather than as you would understand this.

It is you who sounds obsessed. Trying to force something where it is not wanted; and with no signs of empathy for the group that you are trying to impose upon.

Quite.

they are intersectional feminists

Are they campaigning for gender identity to completely replace biological sex in feminism? Do they understand that women are different to men biologically? If so, they are not.

This obssession with trans women, who are not the source of women's oppression, seems disproportion, when it's men who are the main source of women's oppression. It would be nice if more of this energy was directed there rather than attacking a highly oppressed minority who are in the most danger, and should be allies

If you try to force your way in, and coerce people, of course you are going to get a reaction. Women require and value single sex spaces, services and sports. That is why we have them.

It is you who sounds obsessed. Trying to force something where it is not wanted; and with no signs of empathy for the group that you are trying to impose upon.

Discomfort with the presence of members of protected classes has been a source of bigotry and oppression throughout the ages

Males have not traditionally been a protected class. Females, on the other hand, have been, and remain so. The world over.

Protected groups tend not to try to storm the boundaries of other protected groups. Protected groups usually seek their own safe space, in fact. Forcing oneself on another, who does not want you there is not generally something a vulnerable person or group does. that speaks far more of privilege and power.

Again, this is based on the premise that transgender people are not who they say they are, and gender identity is not real

Pretty much, yes.

Nobody wants to deny someone's else's feelings about themselves, but feelings and material reality are two separate issues.

Nobody just accepts a stranger's word that "they are who they say they are". Not in most normal or formal circumstances, anyway. and certainly not when faced with the obvious cognitive dissonance of being presented with a white person, for example, who tells you they are black; or with an obviously male person who tells you that they are female.

Feelings don't trump reality.

Any of these issues can be discussed and solved if we start from the premise that gender identity is a real thing, and that people are the gender they say they are. If you start from a counterfactual, that trans women, for example, are men, we get nowhere

Gender and sex are two separate things. Gender is entirely a mental and social construct, and as such it is relative to the individual and to the society that formulates it.

You can believe in 'gender identities' if you wish, but you have no right to impose that belief onto others. Sex is an established fact, the world over, however.One's inner feelings about oneself are one's own issue to deal with. You don't go around expecting the whole world to conform to your very private ideas or feelings about yourself.

@Justhadathought You've got no idea what what most women in Britain think. I, on the other hand, know what many women think because I've spoken to a wide ranging sample of them. women and girls value the privacy and dignity that single sex spaces provide, and they feel very uncomfortable with males in their intimate spaces, unless invited.

Again, this is based on the premise that transgender people are not who they say they are, and gender identity is not real. I am not basing my views on a collection of anecdotes, though I have listened to many women on this issue. A few are still GC, but on the whole, they are intersectional feminists. I wouldn't rely on those conversations alone to form an opinion.

Discomfort with the presence of members of protected classes has been a source of bigotry and oppression throughout the ages.

This obssession with trans women, who are not the source of women's oppression, seems disproportion, when it's men who are the main source of women's oppression. It would be nice if more of this energy was directed there rather than attacking a highly oppressed minority who are in the most danger, and should be allies.

Everyone in Britain already has equal civil rights. That includes people who identify as trans.

Indeed.

If you start from a counterfactual, that trans women, for example, are men, we get nowhere.

How is that "a counterfactual"? Give us your definition of "trans woman".

Trans women for example are not perpetrators of abuse as a class against non-trans women.

It's not remotely relevant what inner gender identity they have. Males are perpetrators of abuse as a class against females.

@pensivepigeon "Why is deemed acceptable that trans genders people's psychological well-being should be put before that of female survivors of male abuse?"

I don't agree with the premise of the question.

Trans women for example are not perpetrators of abuse as a class against non-trans women. If an individual member of a protected class has an issue in general with people from another protected class, it might be possible to make an accomodation, but just because an individual has PTSD and is triggered by BAME people, disabled people, or transgender people for example, that says nothing about an accomodation for the whole class.

Any of these issues can be discussed and solved if we start from the premise that gender identity is a real thing, and that people are the gender they say they are. If you start from a counterfactual, that trans women, for example, are men, we get nowhere.

Everyone in Britain already has equal civil rights. That includes people who identify as trans.

Fully transitioned transexuals are not the same group as the far more diverse transgender identified grouping of today.