An inclusive way to be gender critical?

No again.

I am not misrepresenting anything.

I am spelling out what you are saying bluntly.

You can not have 'inclusive' gender identity when the entire premise of gender identity is based on gender stereotypes which exclude women in society.

You can say whatever you like and argue it til you are blue in the face but that truth remains.

You can not get away from the circular argument of gender identity and describe it without using gender stereotypes.

It is impossible.

Why?

Because gender identity is the reinforcement of gender stereotypes.

Also, you are speaking to women. Gender critical feminists are largely women (though I do apologise to any gender critical men taking part of the debate, generally it’s women here on the FWR boards!)

@DadJoke I think you’ve got your statistics wrong poppet, most people in the U.K. are ignorant of the status of trans rights and generally don’t give a fig. Trans rights activists within the U.K. care about trans rights and are actively seeking to erode women’s rights - have you really never taken a look at the statistics of trans women attacking and sexually assaulting women within the U.K.? Has your research not yet led you to uncover the numerous stories about what is happening to women at the hands of trans women in refuges and jails? Go educate yourself a bit instead of making such stupid sweeping statements.

Also, using words such as 'transphobic' is water off a duck's back. All it seems to mean is a refusal to go along with a certain narrative and set of proposals one disagrees with. Same with bigot. It is all so tiresome.

Thank you @RedToothBrush. You always manage to articulate, so beautifully, the things I can only think

I will say it again because i dont think i was blunt enough the first time.

The entire premise of the OP is disingenuous because it, and trans ideology, push gender stereotypes onto men and women. It stresses that women and men should dress certain ways or do certain things and are happy with gender stereotypes if you do not sign up as trans. It therefore legitimises and indeed advocates surgery and hormones as a way reject these stereotypes saying that sex is chosen and your body is wrong if you do not match these. It could not be more regressive if it tried. It sends women back the kitchen to high heels. Whilst of course late male transitioners think they are above the drudge of the domestic and childcare responsibilities that come with these stereotypes.

Instead they frame trans ideology as progressive because it means men can be included in the bits of female appearance and status which suit them (whilst simultaneously ignoring the shit bits or the uncomfortable issues of inheritance and transmen and how being pregnant can only be a female act because biology).

Instead it is actually actively pushing body dysmorphia and the idea that bodies are wrong if they dont conform to stereotypes. Its all about pushing conformity not rejecting it!

Its funny how a diagnosis of body dysmorphia is as follows:

You may have body dysmorphic disorder if you worry a lot about how a specific part of your body looks and it affects your daily life.

Treatments for body dysmorphic disorder include talking therapies and antidepressants.

The exact cause of body dysmorphic disorder is unclear. It's been linked to genes, chemical changes in the brain and traumatic past experiences.

All things we are supposed to ignore when the word trans is mentioned. We have a pile of research and evidence which is dismissed outright for conditions like anorexia which involve body dysmorphia because of ideology.

When ideolgy dominates over science and research you have a problem. It is a pattern which is always regressive in practice and has a dark history.

So no, i will not sign up to either gender stereotypes or trans ideology because its backwards, harms too many people and fails to safeguard50% of the population. It disproportionately benefits males to the detriment of females - even if they are transmen (who seem to get the particularly shitty end of the stick for hormones and surgery side effects).

The OP was posting in bad faith from the word go. It was designed to try and create a narrative of women here being narrow minded and as if they hadnt considered certain things. It had undertones that perpetuated the narrative of transwomen being the most disadvantaged in society (they are categorically not).

This was seen through and called out because we've seen it all before. The MO of the friendly question, but with a bloody obvious smear agenda from the second it started.

The answer is still no.

No you can not change sex.
No transwomen are not women.
No we do not believe in gender stereotypes.
No we do not advocate and will not support ideology which promotes body dysmorphia and the unnecessary medicalisation of healthy individuals. Especially when they are disproportionately vulnerable groups such as children, lesbians and people who are autistic.

No. No. And again no.

How, exactly, are you going to determine the sex of people using toilets? If you are genuinely worried that men will pretend to be transgender in order to infiltrate women's facilities, it's just as plausible (ie not very) that a cis man might pretend to be a trans man in order to do so. Are you going to inspect the genitals of everyone who is gender non-conforming? That's an awful lot of people

To most, the whole concept of gender identity is a pretence.

Who is to say, according to your own words, who is a woman and who is not? We are told that male genitalia is really female genitalia if the possessor of those genitals identifies as a woman. Who are you to say who is really trans and not?

Single sex spaces exist as a safeguard - to protect and preserve the dignity and comfort of the female sex ( also the male sex).

You are simply gaslighting now.

Why don't you campaign for third spaces?

Any of these issues can be discussed and solved if we start from the premise that gender identity is a real thing, and that people are the gender they say they are. If you start from a counterfactual, that trans women, for example, are men, we get nowhere.

But no one is arguing against gender identity. Some people have one. Their beliefs should be respected - or, to be more precise, their right to hold those beliefs should be respected, even by people who disagree & think gender identity is an entirely personal matter.

You have a strong belief in your gender identity? That's fine. But it's entirely subjective & no basis on which to undermine issues determined by sex.

Sex segregated spaces are not predicated on gender identities.

spaces

Currently, transgender people can use the toilets which match their gender. Separating them off is straightforwardly transphobic, just as separate facilities for BAME people based on spurious evidence was straightforwardly racist

You clearly have no grounding or understanding of why single sex Ypaces were first sought and required. those reasons have not gone away. They are about the dignity, privacy and also the safety due to one's sex.

I'm sick of TRA activists using black people to bolster their position. Usually it ends up sounding very racist itself. Black women are women; not a sub category of women. And black women also need and require single sex spaces; because males, of whatever colour, pose a threat to women.

Gender is not the same as sex.

just as seperate facilities for BAME people based on spurious evidence was straightforwardly racist.

It's not even remotely comparable, but nice try.

Currently, transgender people can use the toilets which match their gender.

There is no such protected right. Single sex spaces can be for women only. Non GRC holding males are legally male. You're confusing trans lobby captured guidance with the law. Boring though it might be to look at threads where you aren't Having Your Say, we've discussed this issue on FWR in depth many times without your pearls of wisdom, DadJoke. The last time was yesterday evening, I believe.

How, exactly, are you going to determine the sex of people using toilets? If you are genuinely worried that men will pretend to be transgender in order to infiltrate women's facilities, it's just as plausible (ie not very) that a cis man might pretend to be a trans man in order to do so. Are you going to inspect the genitals of everyone who is gender non-conforming? That's an awful lot of people.

You mean we can't trust males to respect women's privacy and dignity voluntarily and stay out of places that aren't meant for them? Well I never, there's a thing.

@Justhadathought Stop trying to centre yourself in everything. Women are not "non trans people".

100/1 says you hate the word "cis", so I used non-trans, and in this context I was discussing people in general, not women in particular. Finally, I am not transgender, so how on earth am I centering myself in a discussion of gender identity?

Women are a protected group in the U.k, with protected status in the Equalities Act - which guarantees single sex spaces and services.

The Equalities Act allows must be a proportionate means to achieve a legitimate aim if there is a conflict between protected categories.

Currently, transgender people can use the toilets which match their gender. Separating them off is straightforwardly transphobic, just as seperate facilities for BAME people based on spurious evidence was straightforwardly racist.

@Ereshkigalangcleg You're suggesting that gender reassignment is the only protected characteristic. Which is nonsense.

Clearly not. You can be a member of more than one protected category.

How, exactly, are you going to determine the sex of people using toilets? If you are genuinely worried that men will pretend to be transgender in order to infiltrate women's facilities, it's just as plausible (ie not very) that a cis man might pretend to be a trans man in order to do so. Are you going to inspect the genitals of everyone who is gender non-conforming? That's an awful lot of people.

Definitely, bourbonne. But DadJoke doesn't seem to understand how risk and safeguarding work.

but they are who they say they are

Who says? I don't accept that. it's not possible to change sex, and I don't believe in innate gender identity in the same way you do.

"They are who they say they are" is a bloody terrifying message to handing down. It's a basic principle of safeguarding not to simply nod and smile when someone makes claims about their identity and credentials.