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Original poster

An inclusive way to be gender critical?

882 replies

pensivepigeon · 27/02/2021 07:57

My thoughts on gender and sex are thus:

Gender is a social construct. It is how society and individuals view the presentation of the sexes - in fashion, interests and work roles. Whereas sex is biological, we cannot change it even though we might surgically change our appearance and take artificial hormones which affect our bodily functions.

However because gender is a social construct and we are part of society we can define it. I define gender as

Female = adhering or not adhering to traditional stereotypes regarding names, fashion, interests and work roles.
Male= adhering or not adhering to traditional stereotypes regarding names, fashion, interests and work roles.

If everyone took this on board it would mean safe single sex spaces could be preserved, as people could present themselves however they want, wear what they want but use the single sex space appropriate for their sex without conflict. Uniforms would offer everyone both traditional female and male options which either sex could wear. Ditto with sports, competing takes place within the appropriate sex classes but competitors can wear either the traditional male or female competition uniforms. There would be no confusion and need to agonise over language when providing medical care.

Taking this stance stance means I have no problem when it comes to saying I am of female sex with a female gender.

So am I gender critical? Is this inclusive?

OP posts:
RootyT00t · 02/03/2021 21:38

[quote CorvusPurpureus]@RootyT00t that's really not an argument, is it?

We would like to retain our rights as women, as a sex class.

How many women saying 'no' do you need to hear?

You want to take those rights away? The onus is on you to explain a) why women would be better off &/or b) well, they wouldn't be, but here's reasons why they should suck it up anyway.

I'm not finding either set of arguments, or their disingenuous overlap, at all persuasive.[/quote]
Well, when you present your stance so arrogantly, we all say no and therefore no, why should we give anything up etc etc, I'm not entirely surprised that people find it difficult to persuade you, or indeed want to. You have an alarming inflation of your own importance in dictating what people do in the world.

CorvusPurpureus · 02/03/2021 21:36

@RootyT00t that's really not an argument, is it?

We would like to retain our rights as women, as a sex class.

How many women saying 'no' do you need to hear?

You want to take those rights away? The onus is on you to explain a) why women would be better off &/or b) well, they wouldn't be, but here's reasons why they should suck it up anyway.

I'm not finding either set of arguments, or their disingenuous overlap, at all persuasive.

RootyT00t · 02/03/2021 21:32

@pensivepigeon

One thing this thread certainly does demonstrate is that tribalism isn't exclusively the preserve of people with a gender identity....
👏👏👏

Every thread ends up that way.

Original poster
pensivepigeon · 02/03/2021 21:30

It's not for us to find reasons why we should compromise our rights.

And the compromising of women's rights is not what I'm advocating. There is no reason to compromise them because they stand up to scrutiny and are protected in law.

What I am proposing is merely a recognition of gender as a cultural phenomenon alongside with redefining and clarifying more accurately what it actually means in today's society so that every variety of gender identity and expression is deemed appropriate for either sex.

OP posts:
RootyT00t · 02/03/2021 21:23

@CorvusPurpureus

I think posters like *@RedToothBrush* are sharper than a scalpel specialising in lemon shaving tbh, OP.

Gender beliefs/stereotypes/whatever are a thing. We get it.

On the whole we are Down With That Sort Of Thing because no good comes of it.

There's no 'nuance' when we are defending our rights as women. It's not for us to find reasons why we should compromise our rights.

The genderists can look to how they can come & talk to us, & explain how their proposals are good news for women.

So far, I'm not seeing anything convincing.

It's not for us to find reasons for you why it's good news, either.

Because not everything is about you.

(Hence why everyone should 'compromise').

Original poster
pensivepigeon · 02/03/2021 21:17

It demonstrates sex is material reality that lots of people recognise

Myself included as I have very clearly stated on this thread and numerous others.

some people try and talk bollocks to avoid and disguise.

Never disputed that either and it is not what I am doing. The purpose of continuing dialogue is to expose the truth as it enables the untangling and unraveling of people's ideas.

OP posts:
CorvusPurpureus · 02/03/2021 21:14

I think posters like @RedToothBrush are sharper than a scalpel specialising in lemon shaving tbh, OP.

Gender beliefs/stereotypes/whatever are a thing. We get it.

On the whole we are Down With That Sort Of Thing because no good comes of it.

There's no 'nuance' when we are defending our rights as women. It's not for us to find reasons why we should compromise our rights.

The genderists can look to how they can come & talk to us, & explain how their proposals are good news for women.

So far, I'm not seeing anything convincing.

RedToothBrush · 02/03/2021 21:12

@pensivepigeon

One thing this thread certainly does demonstrate is that tribalism isn't exclusively the preserve of people with a gender identity....
No.

It demonstrates sex is material reality that lots of people recognise and some people try and talk bollocks to avoid and disguise.

Original poster
pensivepigeon · 02/03/2021 21:10

One thing this thread certainly does demonstrate is that tribalism isn't exclusively the preserve of people with a gender identity....

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 02/03/2021 21:09

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Yes. Call it "non binary".
Snigger.

Love it.

Original poster
pensivepigeon · 02/03/2021 21:09

Don't think RedToothBrush would like that somehow @Ereshkigalangcleg...

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/03/2021 21:07

Yes. Call it "non binary".

Original poster
pensivepigeon · 02/03/2021 21:06

Sharp and blunt at the same time. That's a new one...

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/03/2021 21:05

Oh I think she was pretty sharp too.

RootyT00t · 02/03/2021 21:05

[quote ChancesWhatChances]@DadJoke I think you’ve got your statistics wrong poppet, most people in the U.K. are ignorant of the status of trans rights and generally don’t give a fig. Trans rights activists within the U.K. care about trans rights and are actively seeking to erode women’s rights - have you really never taken a look at the statistics of trans women attacking and sexually assaulting women within the U.K.? Has your research not yet led you to uncover the numerous stories about what is happening to women at the hands of trans women in refuges and jails? Go educate yourself a bit instead of making such stupid sweeping statements.[/quote]
You've certainly demonstrated how ignorant people can be.

Original poster
pensivepigeon · 02/03/2021 21:02

I will say it again because i dont think i was blunt enough the first time.

Bluntness doesn't get you very far I'm afraid. Metaphorically just running round with your eyes unfocused and attempting to obliterate any discussion you don't like the look of with a ruddy great club is plainly not very bright.

Try sharpening up a bit...

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/03/2021 20:56

I will say it again because i dont think i was blunt enough the first time.

Great post RedToothBrush

NotDavidTennant · 02/03/2021 20:50

This is a good place to start with the actual evidence. This is a good summary of the research, including a discussion on heretability.

research.vu.nl/ws/portalfiles/portal/83595397/Polderman2018_Article_TheBiologicalContributionsToGe.pdf

The third paragraph in, the authors state "Every person has a gender identity", but provide no citation or supporting evidence.

Can you cite any evidence that all people (or even most people) have a gender identity?

Original poster
pensivepigeon · 02/03/2021 20:48

And thats where i disengage because of your bad faith posting.

You've disengaged so much already you fail to understand what I have been saying and have created a straw man of me.

OP posts:
Original poster
pensivepigeon · 02/03/2021 20:46

Sex is a scientific fact. Its how we reproduce.
I have never disputed this. Read my posts.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 02/03/2021 20:46

And on the note of

Female = eggs
Male = sperm

Women's rights and oppression stem from our ability to concieve which wont change regardless of how we look or whether we call ourselves martian or trolls or goats.

And thats where i disengage because of your bad faith posting.

RedToothBrush · 02/03/2021 20:43

@pensivepigeon

When ideolgy dominates over science and research you have a problem. It is a pattern which is always regressive in practice and has a dark history.

But it will always play apart because science doesn't occur within a vacuum. It is carried out by people who are subject to ideologies. What I am suggesting is akin to discussion of all the priors and biases, declaring them to be laid out alongside the research for reference in the hope they are kept separate from the actual research.

Let me be blunt again.

Sex is a scientific fact. Its how we reproduce.

It has fuck all to do with bubbles of ideology.

How we reproduce will continue to be down to our sex. Whether we call ourselves unicorns and dragons, the baby will still come out human.

Cos fantasy can't change material reality.

Original poster
pensivepigeon · 02/03/2021 20:43

Because gender identity is the reinforcement of gender stereotypes.

It doesn't matter if those gender stereotypes are expanded out so much their function to stereotype people breaks. They just become features people choose to adopt or not for their amusement.

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/03/2021 20:42

Has your research not yet led you to uncover the numerous stories about what is happening to women

Judicial Review challenging MoJ going on today and tomorrow in fact, where a female prisoner is alleging she was sexually assaulted by an MTF GRC holder in prison when this person was placed in the female estate.

Original poster
pensivepigeon · 02/03/2021 20:40

When ideolgy dominates over science and research you have a problem. It is a pattern which is always regressive in practice and has a dark history.

But it will always play apart because science doesn't occur within a vacuum. It is carried out by people who are subject to ideologies. What I am suggesting is akin to discussion of all the priors and biases, declaring them to be laid out alongside the research for reference in the hope they are kept separate from the actual research.

OP posts:
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