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Original poster

An inclusive way to be gender critical?

882 replies

pensivepigeon · 27/02/2021 07:57

My thoughts on gender and sex are thus:

Gender is a social construct. It is how society and individuals view the presentation of the sexes - in fashion, interests and work roles. Whereas sex is biological, we cannot change it even though we might surgically change our appearance and take artificial hormones which affect our bodily functions.

However because gender is a social construct and we are part of society we can define it. I define gender as

Female = adhering or not adhering to traditional stereotypes regarding names, fashion, interests and work roles.
Male= adhering or not adhering to traditional stereotypes regarding names, fashion, interests and work roles.

If everyone took this on board it would mean safe single sex spaces could be preserved, as people could present themselves however they want, wear what they want but use the single sex space appropriate for their sex without conflict. Uniforms would offer everyone both traditional female and male options which either sex could wear. Ditto with sports, competing takes place within the appropriate sex classes but competitors can wear either the traditional male or female competition uniforms. There would be no confusion and need to agonise over language when providing medical care.

Taking this stance stance means I have no problem when it comes to saying I am of female sex with a female gender.

So am I gender critical? Is this inclusive?

OP posts:
Thelnebriati · 02/03/2021 22:59

Can you explain how you will do that? Take charge of what, and how?

Original poster
pensivepigeon · 02/03/2021 22:56

s, & gender is not really our problem to solve.

I'm prepared to take ownership of any problem which affects me and other women. I've got a solution. I studied linguistics as part of a degree way back. I'm well versed in language acquisition and evolving meanings. Language changes all the time and a war of ideologies is rooted in its language. I say, let's take charge and utilise this!

OP posts:
AradiaGC · 02/03/2021 22:54

On compromise:

"Meet me in the middle," says the unjust man.
You take a step forwards.
He takes a step back.
"Meet me in the middle," says the unjust man.

Whoever would have thought, a decade or two ago, that saying that a woman is an adult human female would be so controversial that very few politicians would be willing to say it openly?

Women should not have to compromise on their sex-based rights.

CorvusPurpureus · 02/03/2021 22:48

I'm not sure, OP, that you're arguing in good faith, but I'm inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt.

You're straining, as it were, the metaphor!

You are NOT making a good case for your ideas about gender, in my opinion - & I've read the whole thread.

I think you are missing the fundamental point that we are concerned about women's rights, & gender is not really our problem to solve.

pensivepigeon · 02/03/2021 22:37

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/03/2021 22:27

I think we should be bloody arrogant, actually, if that means having the effrontery to defend our rights.

👏 Wine

CorvusPurpureus · 02/03/2021 22:24

OP, we don't need to define it.

We are free to 'arrogantly' Grin reject it.

It's not helpful to us as a class of people. At best it's irrelevant & more often it's harmful.

Your 'nuance' is the other cheek of Rooty's 'women: don't be arrogant' 's arse.

I think we should be bloody arrogant, actually, if that means having the effrontery to defend our rights.

Original poster
pensivepigeon · 02/03/2021 22:10

. History shows that women dont get a say in how gender is defined.

Historically maybe. But this needn't be true of the future.

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/03/2021 22:09

Yes, and....? My life is mine, not to be spent seeing to men's needs and changing anything about me because it would be more satisfying to men. I did that far too often in the past, but no more. The future for girls and younger women is not going to be as dire as it was for me and other women in the past.

There will be no compromise unless it benefits (guess who) women, women, women.

Well said.

Thelnebriati · 02/03/2021 22:09

Gender is a tool used to enforce a hierarchy based on sex. History shows that women dont get a say in how gender is defined.

When men enter a profession the wages rise.
If they leave the wages fall.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/03/2021 22:08

Women women women women women

Well, yes. That's what FWR is for. Magnificently and unapologetically.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/03/2021 22:06

Well, when you present your stance so arrogantly

Women refusing consent to males is arrogant, now.

Original poster
pensivepigeon · 02/03/2021 22:05

No.

It won't.

Next

Yes, it will. La, la, la....I'M IT!!!!

OP posts:
Original poster
pensivepigeon · 02/03/2021 22:03

Because our female (and male) children are exposed to discussions concerning gender identity. They need to be given the tools to negotiate their way through them, what they mean and the implications for our society.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 02/03/2021 22:00

@pensivepigeon

There will be no compromise unless it benefits (guess who) women, women, women.

And my proposal will benefit women without compromising any of their rights.

No.

It won't.

Next.

Original poster
pensivepigeon · 02/03/2021 21:59

There will be no compromise unless it benefits (guess who) women, women, women.

And my proposal will benefit women without compromising any of their rights.

OP posts:
ChewtonRoad · 02/03/2021 21:57

Women women women women women .

Yes, and....? My life is mine, not to be spent seeing to men's needs and changing anything about me because it would be more satisfying to men. I did that far too often in the past, but no more. The future for girls and younger women is not going to be as dire as it was for me and other women in the past.

There will be no compromise unless it benefits (guess who) women, women, women.

RedToothBrush · 02/03/2021 21:56

Compromise = women exposed to a higher risk of rape / harassment / abuse in places which were previously single sex.

No.

Just no.

CorvusPurpureus · 02/03/2021 21:55

Well, when you present your stance so arrogantly, we all say no and therefore no, why should we give anything up etc etc, I'm not entirely surprised that people find it difficult to persuade you, or indeed want to.

'Arrogantly'.

Women wanting to maintain their sex based rights OR even to hear a bloody good reason why they should surrender them: arrogance.

CorvusPurpureus · 02/03/2021 21:48

@RootyT00t

What's your proposed compromise, & how would it benefit women?

Because I think you're misunderstanding the word, 'compromise', massively.

What are you offering that would make women think 'oh ok, fair enough, we should probably stop advocating for our own rights because Rooty says we can trade them for .'

You can't buy us. You have nothing to offer in this scenario.

RedToothBrush · 02/03/2021 21:45

Women women women women women

Strange that.

This being 'feminist chat' on Mumsnet

Original poster
pensivepigeon · 02/03/2021 21:44

Gender is just words, some of which are harmful to women. Reality matters, and women's lives are not to be spent ensuring others' feelings aren't bruised.

So take out the harmful words and replace them with beneficial ones. We have words. Let's use them constructively instead of trying to silence everything we think we might not like before we have even attempted to listen properly. This thread is like trying to argue with children who are only interested in playing a whispering game.

Culture frames reality and people's perception of it. So I am more than willing to engage with it.

OP posts:
RootyT00t · 02/03/2021 21:39

@ChewtonRoad

Well done RedToothBrush.

(Hence why everyone should 'compromise') What, is Compromise two stops along from Be Kind Central?

Sex exists. Gender is just words, some of which are harmful to women. Reality matters, and women's lives are not to be spent ensuring others' feelings aren't bruised.

Women women women women women .
Original poster
pensivepigeon · 02/03/2021 21:38

disingenuous

I am entirely sincere. However, you don't need to believe me. It will become evident sooner or later.

OP posts:
ChewtonRoad · 02/03/2021 21:38

Well done RedToothBrush.

(Hence why everyone should 'compromise') What, is Compromise two stops along from Be Kind Central?

Sex exists. Gender is just words, some of which are harmful to women. Reality matters, and women's lives are not to be spent ensuring others' feelings aren't bruised.

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