Caster Semenya's case to be taken to ECHR

I found Ross Tucker's podcasts useful to understand CS case. Tucker was part of the initial team of experts argueing for CS so his first podcast on the subject is skewed by his position on that legal team.

play.acast.com/s/realscienceofsport/the-caster-semenya-decision-explained

However his second podcast after the verdict is quite different in tone. Anyone who has spent any time reading and listening to RT should know he is evidence based all the way. World Athletics basically fucked up. The won the moral arguement that XY athletes should not compete with XX athletes but were asked by the Court to provide evidence, and that's where they failed. They could only provide evdence for a limited number of events which is why CS was still eligible to compete in womens athletics is she moved up or down distances.

play.acast.com/s/realscienceofsport/thecaseofcaster-whyprincipletrumpedbadevidence-herfuture-whatitmeansforthefutureofwomenssport

*derails.

I’d just ignore it, andy.

Talk about sport, please, or bore off, jj. I can’t be doing with your details today.

jj1968 - another attempted derail????

As always, the issue comes down to what is meant by female/woman, and what SHOULD be meant by female/woman.

If the true factual meaning is used as the defining factor for female sports categories, then upbringing is irrelevant, presentation is irrelevant, pronouns are irrelevant, identity is irrelevant, clothes worn at school is irrelevant, what your family thought you were is irrelevant, even what is on your birth certificate is not the ultimate factor and should be subject to challenge where there is evidence that it may not be in accordance with biological sex . How one has always thought of oneself is irrelevant. The age at which one discovered one's condition is irrelevant.

And hormone levels are irrelevant too. A woman with undetectable oestrogen is exactly as female as a woman with high oestrogen, no more, no less. And a man with higher oestrogen than either remains 100% male. The same applies to testosterone. You cannot measure a hormone and conclude a person is 'more male' or 'more female'. What categorises a person as male or female is an entirely different criterion.

Female is understood to mean the sex class that has developed along one of two distinct types of evolved reproductive anatomy: ovaries and not testes. These are the primary sex organs, the gonads.
The secondary implications that flow from being the sex that has testes vs the sex that has ovaries are profound.

If female is distilled back to its actual biological meaning and all misconceptions are stripped away (ones personal beliefs, or identity, or sense of self, or upbringing, or superficial appearance, or hormone levels) then the category is clear. We have allowed vestiges of other, false ideas to remain influential in the category of what it means to be female, and that's a mistake.

If ever there was a time for clarity about what female actually means and why we provide different categories for the sexes, the time is now.

"None of you lot get to decide wether Semenya is woman enough." (sic)

You're absolutely right. Science gets to decide.

JJ1968, why does this also have to become a thread about who uses what toilet?

I'm curious if people think those with 46, XY disorders should also be prevented from using women's toilets/changing rooms etc, and if this includes everyone with such a disorder including Swyers Syndrome, who do not go through normal male puberty, usually have female appearing genitalia and are most often raised and identify as girls despite their chromosones?

HerrenaHarridan

I suggest that you read up about Caster Semenya, Francine Niyonsaba and Margaret Wambui.
They have a few things in common. They all competed at the 2016 Rio Olympics. They all competed in the women's 800m. They all had podium places to receive medals.
They all had the same 46XY DSD, which means that they all went through a MALE puberty.
Finally, the opinion of every person commenting here matters every bit as much as that of Caster Semenya.

Always useful to have details about the case under discussion. An article here gives quite a bit, both background and current:
www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/olympics/caster-semenya-takes-case-to-european-court-of-human-rights-in-final-effort-to-return-to-800m/ar-BB1e0Iks

' “Caster asks the Court to find that Switzerland has failed in its positive obligations to protect her against the violation of her rights under the European Convention on Human Rights,” her lawyers said.'

Interesting to note that there have been previous sports cases before the court:

' It’s unclear if the human rights court would be able to hear Semenya’s case before the delayed Tokyo Olympics, which might be her last. The games are set to open on July 23. Previous sports cases that have gone to the European Court of Human Rights have taken years to be decided." '

Section I contains articles 2 to 18.

Yes. Let''s make people eligible for elite sporting events based only on what they say - that way we can be inclusive.

Rolls eyes

Drug testing is very intrusive should that stop too?

Semenya was not raised as a female. When attending their Christian (might’ve been Catholic, can’t recall) school, Semenya wore the boy’s uniform of button down oxford and trousers. Girls at the school were assigned a uniform of a skirt.

Semenya on left: i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/08/21/article-1208227-0622E334000005DC-724_468x604.jpg

One of Semenya’s teachers came forward and reported that Semenya was treated as and referred to as male at the school.

Do you really believe a female student in that environment— a traditional parochial school in SA in the 90s— could’ve demanded wearing the male uniform and her request granted?

The myth that Semenya was “raised female” is a carefully constructed one, long upheld by the SA sports orgs and media. It isn’t true.

Seymenya chooses to compete in women’s sports. Chooses to further a career at the expense of women with normal levels of testosterone. And as a result chooses to accept the worlds scrutiny.

That wasn't a comment on merits but on eligibility under relevant provisions. Here, discrimination on either sex or other status would seem to be relevant. Rights aren't absolute but subject to other considerations and permissible restrictions.

There’s a real person in the middle of this

There are lots of real people in the middle of this. Every woman Semenya competes against is also a real person. They all have to be considered.

But that article is referring to "rights and freedoms set forth in this Convention". You need to locate the right or freedom to participate in a particular sport category first.

Imaginé being raised your whole life as a woman and girl, training hard enough to compete at a professional level and then having the whole world thinking that your sex and gender are a matter for them to debate.

None of you lot get to decide wether Semenya is woman enough.

Those of you insisting they will complain to the press if they don’t refer to her as a man should be ashamed of yourselves.
I can only imagine how much you would revel in the same public humiliation.

There’s a real person in the middle of this

Her opinion matters... unlike yours.

Not regardless of other peoples rights on any of those grounds though.

Presumably actionable under Article 14.

Article 14 – Prohibition of discrimination

"The enjoyment of the rights and freedoms set forth in this Convention shall be secured without discrimination on any ground such as sex, race, colour, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, association with a national minority, property, birth or other status."

Other status.

These cases are one of the few places where there is merit in the idea that sex is somewhat nuanced.

The only way forward is to speak honestly about the different types of DSD and group them in a way that’s meaningful for sporting categorisation. So while Caster’s DSD clearly gives an insurmountable advantage not available to a woman because Caster’s able to synthesise the available testosterone, that won’t necessarily hold true for different DSDs where that doesn’t happen. I can imagine that there will be athletes with DSDs who can fairly compete in the women’s categories. Caster, and others with the specified 46 XY DSD in the previous judgement are unlikely to be in that group.

This may not be a particularly pleasant or welcome process for athletes with DSDs, and that really is regrettable, but unavoidable. The same sort of intrusive and sometimes unpleasant process happens with Paralympic athletes to ascertain the correct category for their level of function, and that’s accepted as being a fair trade off to ensure safety, competitiveness and fairness.

As PPs have said, there’s no human right to compete in an elite sporting category that you’re not entitled to be in. I enjoy watching women’s sports because it’s women participating. It’s inspiring to see women at the peak of their physical prowess and skills. It’s no fun at all watching women getting beaten by male bodies. I’m sorry, Caster, I am sorry that fate has dealt you this hand, but you’re not entitled to do this, and I’m afraid you’re go8ng to have to live with that.

3 individuals turning up to women's events

And, let's face it, it's not just accidentally "turning up", is it? Elite sports and its scouting is notoriously corrupt. If Semenya is successful, what will happen? Scouts will be scouring developing nations for male children with 5-ARD to develop for national teams - almost certainly already are. Women won't stand a chance.

NotBadConsidering

This is one of the very few articles I have seen which makes it very clear about Caster Semenya. The MSM will not be so forthcoming.

www.letsrun.com/news/2019/05/what-no-one-is-telling-you-about-caster-semenya-she-has-xy-chromosomes/