Caster Semenya's case to be taken to ECHR

Surely if you can decide for yourself and therefore decide which event you'll enter, who isn't gong to choose the one where every other contestant hasn't a hope in hell of beating you?

And women and their resources aren't something belonging to the male sex, conditionally on loan to women only if and when male people don't need them. This kind of misogyny is unacceptable.

Thank you, so much this.

What gets me cross is that Caster Semenya lives , and has done for many years, as a MAN. Yet she wants to be a woman when it is to her advantage.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4018324-Caster-Semenya-has-lost-appeal

Previous thread link for JJ.

This is a very easy 2 page document that lays out the previous decision by CAS, if users can’t summon up the energy to look at any of the other resources cited.

www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_upload/Media_Release_Semenya_ASA_IAAF_decision.pdf

Swyer syndrome isn’t relevant here.

Yes, we do know about Caster’s condition because the ruling by the Court of Arbitration specified the applicability:

“The DSD covered by the Regulations are limited to athletes with “46 XY DSD” – i.e. conditions where the affected individual has XY chromosomes”.

It’s not speculation.

Do we actually know that much detail about Semanya's condition, or the other two athletes mentioned on this thread, or is it largely speculation?

Well I’ve linked some podcasts for you earlier and there’s whole threads on this subject that outline the details from the CAS case.

Some info here, now I don;t think Semanya has this but the other two atheletes mentioned might: medlineplus.gov/genetics/condition/swyer-syndrome/

People with Swyer syndrome have typical female external genitalia. The uterus and fallopian tubes are normally-formed, but the gonads (ovaries or testes) are not functional; affected individuals have undeveloped clumps of tissue called streak gonads. Because of the lack of development of the gonads, Swyer syndrome is also called 46,XY complete gonadal dysgenesis. The residual gonadal tissue often becomes cancerous, so it is usually removed surgically early in life.

People with Swyer syndrome are typically raised as girls and have a female gender identity. Because they do not have functional ovaries, affected individuals usually begin hormone replacement therapy during adolescence to induce menstruation and development of female secondary sex characteristics such as breast enlargement and uterine growth. Hormone replacement therapy also helps reduce the risk of reduced bone density (osteopenia and osteoporosis). Women with this disorder do not produce eggs (ova), but they may be able to become pregnant with a donated egg or embryo

That sounds more like a woman than a man to me, I don't care what the chromosones say.

Women's 800m final Rio 2016. The first three athletes all have the 46XY DSD condition.

Being that Caster semanya has testes, no uterus or ovaries and an extra high level of testosterone, then Id say she should be able to identify as a woman in most respects, but when it comes down to competing against women in sports then thats different.

i wonder why so many people are all for the rights of caster semanya to not feel bad, yet dont worry about those girls from conneticut etc

The heart of this debate is the fairness, safety and competitiveness of women’s sports and the protections necessary in law and practice to secure those things for girls and women now and in the future.

Not identity, not feelings, and certainly not lavatory provision.

if this means she should be considered a man for all purposes - and if not why not?

Not necessarily, because purposes are different. Sex in DSD individuals is not totally straightforward - that's why they're often called "intersex".

If you are assessing them for sports purposes, you care about overall body type.

But if you were trying to figure out how to approach fertility treatment, their physical build would not be the issue.

Surely at the heart of this debate is whether intersex people have the right to determine their own sex.

They have as much right as everyone to determine their sex, or indeed their height or their age. The trick is to actually effect the change.

If someone succeeded in changing sex, then obviously their body would change, and they would be assessed on their new body.

(This is getting a bit Monty Python. Men have the right to give birth - no-one's stopping them).

So if Semenya would get on and change to a female body to match their desired sports classification, we could save all the legal battles.

A principle which applies to every person: no-one has the 'right' to determine their own sex, much less demand to be included in a category with other people who are fundamentally the opposite sex. Sex isn't a matter of personal decision-making any more than deciding how many legs I have is. It is no more and no less than what can be proven tangibly.

I heartily recommend a listen, particularly the second one that Jackie highlights above. He looked at the evidence, and then basically changed his position because it was so incontrovertible.

Surely at the heart of this debate is whether intersex people have the right to determine their own sex.

As reached on the also highly contentious Shamima Begum case today in the Supreme Court: the individual rights and freedoms of one person do not trump the rights, needs and interests of everyone else.

And women and their resources aren't something belonging to the male sex, conditionally on loan to women only if and when male people don't need them. This kind of misogyny is unacceptable.

WeareJackie I find Ross tucker is so good on this and also someone who bent over backwards to be inclusive and ‘bekind’ but found that wasn’t enough. He has argued long & patiently with TRA on twitter and at first I think he thought he could set out the science and a compromise could be reached. Then he realised it was impossible.

Here's a real person, post-race interview from 2016

That's heartbreaking. I suppose eventually other countries will need to enter their own xy athletes into these events in order to be able to compete and some events will become so dominated by xy people that there will be no place for women at all even at the lower levels. I wonder at what point women will resign themselves to the fact that to compete fairly they will need to (once again) create new categories for xx people.