Any Canadians out there who want a thread?

^Aboriginal issues are extremely complicated, I don't know that that element has much to do with being progressive or not.

Where it has become a problem is that, much like gender, is that there is a very tight narrative that is being allowed to be presented to people.^

I appreciate we're off feminism and onto a tangent now, but I agree with this. The pipeline issue is a well-known example. Another less well-known example is that people who wanted to speak at the TRC about their positive experiences of residential schools were not allowed to. I am not defending the residential school system, nor denying that terrible abuse happened, but the narrative that they were all entirely awful places run by awful people is false (see Tomson Highway's comments on his experience).

I think there are parallels here with the concept of Two Spirit, which has been coopted by the trans movement and used in Canada to legitimize it. From what I've read, traditionally being two spirit did not mean that you were literally seen as the other sex or that you were welcome in women's spaces. But it's become part of FN lore fed to us by government and MSM that they were so progressive on gender. (In fact a lot of older First Nations people are incredibly socially conservative, but that doesn't fit the narrative).

Aboriginal issues are extremely complicated, I don't know that that element has much to do with being progressive or not.

Where it has become a problem is that, much like gender, is that there is a very tight narrative that is being allowed to be presented to people. That's both in terms of very grass roots problems, like addiction problems or economic issues on reserves, and also in terms of higher level political questions, such as how to deal with land rights or where First Nations government fits into the wider society. In some of these there are no clear solutions and in others there is a lot of disagreement about what is best and right.

The tendency among the media is to present only facts that fit into the narrative they want to push. The tendency among political parties has been to use these questions in a way that ultimately supports the issues or image they want to project. I was a Green Party member for a number of years, and I've been really disgusted with their approach to First Nations environmental questions like pipelines, basically painting themselves as the only ones who are looking out for and listening to First Nations communities which of course are anti-pipeline.

Except they aren't. I'm anti-pipeline and would be happy enough if it were true, but it isn't, most aboriginal communities have a variety of views and more than a few are really divided about it - just like everyone else. Flipping Elizabeth May going around presenting herself as the champion of First Nations people, and pipeline supporters as ignoring them, is pretty disgusting and IMO actually deeply racist, but very typical of the political discourse on the left. Present yourself as representing a marginalised group and you can claim a lot of credibility.

The Greens also lost the plot with sex work, gender issues, and even became less nuanced around issues like childcare. All because they are working according to an identity paradigm.

I did address "assigned at birth" and basically said something like medical staff observe and record important medical information, including sex. They don't "assign" a baby's weight, nor do they "assign" a baby's sex.

The word assign implies subjectiveness which is obviously false.

I'm thinking one of the most important issues is how is tis stuff going to get out to the general public?

My mum was absolutely shocked when I told her that it is now policy for transwomen offenders to be housed in women's prisons. She initial didn't believe me, when I told her I'd read it in Feminist Current she was doubtful about it as a source because she had never heard of it, it seemed likely to have an agenda, and it was online. And she couldn't see how this would not be reported in the MSM. I dug out the policy references and as a long time nurse who dealt with all kinds of patients she could see what the problems were immediately in terms of how this would play right into all kinds of people with agendas, personality disorders, and so on.

A fellow I know through work, a very progressive, mid-20's gay man who you would think was very up on all the latest fads was shocked when I told him that sexuality was by many seen as relating to gender rather than sex. I don't know that he entirely believed me either, or similar reasons.

There needs to be more robust coverage somewhere, and while the National Post has done a little it's just dismissed by most progressives or people who vote Liberal - though these days it's publishing the few investigative journalism pieces I see. Progressive Canadians largely rely on the CBC and they are not delivering.

Happy to lurk here - I'm Canadian (West Coast) but have lived in the UK for years. Watching this particular issue develop across the US, UK and Canada has been fascinating and disquieting for me. My first hint that my friends in Toronto just weren't thinking things through came a few years ago, when my university bestie tried to patiently explain to me that it was perfectly fine for a TW to be quoted in an article about lesbian women being more likely to experience orgasm during partnered sex than heterosexual women. This one:
www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/jul/09/do-lesbians-have-better-sex-than-straight-women

She's a very lovely, giving person - I genuinely think that between Rob Ford and Donald Trump, she's gone a bit mad trying to defend her principles against what she's regarding as an endless pushback against tolerance and inclusion. (That fact that's making her sexual politics incredibly regressive just isn't clicking for her.)

And our press culture simply isn't as robust as that in the UK.

I think this is a significant part of the problem. It's not just with this issue either, there increasingly seem certain issues issues where things aren't reported, or they are very selectively reported, as far as traditional or mainstream media goes. I am finding I only see this information from niche, online media sources, or even just from people I know, which is to say I have to go looking in most cases.

I also think that, at least in certain parts of the country there is a kind of passivity involved, and I'd say here on the east coast that is very much the case. People seem to be very trusting in authorities and certain institutions like the CBC. This is areal mixed blessing - people generally are happy to help others, but there is a dark side. Look at how covid has played out. We've done very well indeed in terms of infections. But in NS the legislature hasn't sat in a year and the premier has really not had any real pushback about suspending it, as if it is less important than having pubs or concert venues open.

With so little interest in the operation of basic democratic institutions, it's no surprise that we have walked into all kinds of changes with no public awareness or debate.

Thanks, Medicine Hat, for the genderreport link. This will really help my response.

Does anyone have recommendations for the type of language that would be most effective to be taken seriously? Is diplomatic language the best or would "mad as hell" be effective? For instance is "assigned at birth" a lie, a falsehood, inaccurate, ridiculous or a misrepresentation?

Solidarity from the west coast

You didn't miss the debate, OP. There never was one! My mother says that Canadians want to be the first to jump on any woke trend and she's absolutely right. We want to be seen as the most kind, most tolerant, most accepting, most progressive blah blah blah and this is where it has led us on women's rights.

I don't believe most women here are captured. A dear friend of mine, who has been deeply involved in feminism her whole adult life, woke up to it all at the same time as me. We sort of tentatively gauged where the other one was at over a period of time, and it was a huge relief when we realized we're on the same page. My closest friend where I live also totally gets it. Where I live is deeply 'right on progressive', with many women signed up to the TRA agenda, but I don't think that the average person understands the debate or even realizes there is a debate! And I think a lot are just going along with it because it's the done thing. I don't talk about these issues much with my oldest friends, but a couple of them think I'm a bit alt-right now while another one is on the same page as me.

One of the issues is that the country is too big and geographically spread out to make in-person organization possible. And our press culture simply isn't as robust as that in the UK. On a positive note, the police here are not policing speech (yet) in the same way that is happening in the UK.

Hello! I’m also on the west coast although currently in U.K. Couldn’t help thinking earlier that what happened in the House of Lords earlier today would never happen in any way/shape or form in the Canadian senate :(

I had a woman friend in Canada (I'm in the UK) who is now just an acquaintance. We just fell apart over women's rights / trans rights. Lovely woman, bright, engaged, thoughtful, compassionate. But she simply doesn't see the danger to women and children. And probably thinks I'm hyperbolic and unkind.

Hope the thread takes off. Feeling less alone makes such a massive difference.

Solidarity!

I’d love to join you. I’m a British expat living in Canada on the West coast. I’m thoroughly fed up with the erosion of Women’s rights in Canada. There is nowhere to have a reasoned discussion about this here. I had (note past tense) many wonderful, feminist friends and enjoyed our discussions on many challenging topics, but this topic has divided us, and I am now persona non-grata. It’s thoroughly depressing.

Reply to Nice. That's how I read it. The issues you mention are hugely important, but also what about just good information for businesses and policy makers? What about male vs female purchasing decisions, hobbies, sports, children, where to live, food preferences. All these things could be obscured by using gender rather than sex.