Have things gone too far?

[quote Okbussitout]@BuntingEllacott I don't link you're extreme in your preferences they are perfectly legitimate. I said in my op I feel that to say a lesbian should have sex with a trans woman or they are transphobic is extreme. As I'm aware many tans women don't have surgery I think it is unlikely many lesbians who are attracted to women would be attracted to tans women and see them as sexual partners when they have a penis.[/quote]
Small but important point of order here - it's not a preference, it's a sexual orientation, protected by law. A preference would my preferring women with long hair. My sexual orientation is towards women. Either is reason enough for to turn someone down, of course. But sexual orientation is the one protected in law, and the one that is currently facing attempted undermining by a myriad of coercive pressure points as displayed most consistently on this thread by jj

Is there Anyone, in the entire universe, JJ, who you think has the right to tell you what a lesbian is?

Wow the homophobia in those tweets is quite something.

I'm not sure this thread is about the opinions of a bunch of mostly unelected old toffs though is it.

Haha! So we cant Listen to people who make the laws because they're old, or because they said something you don't like, or because they don't understand it, or because you like to be classist.

Never mind, jj, at least you've read the memo.

What has been the TRA reaction on Twatter?

Overall, I'd characterise it as "delayed". Some people are aware it was going on but it's waiting on TRAs in general getting their second or third hand pre-digested talking points before the ranting begins in earnest. The initial comments are effectively that the House of Lords needs to be no-platformed.

"Unelected old toffs" is so rude and disrespectful. And ignorant.

So it isn't homophobic for a transwomen to call themselves a lesbian because they believe themselves to be same sex attracted as they identify as women, despite the fact that they are male. Have I got that right?

What I'm saying is I think lesbians aren't not lesbian because they might be attracted to a trans woman. But also it's not up to me who lesbians are attracted to and how they choose to identify their sexuality.

Right, so am I an extremist for saying that lesbians are same sex oriented and not into men, however those men may feel about their maleness? Would I be an extremist for insisting on women as potential partners, or would the only acceptable position be to keep that on the downlow and not mention to the TW who contexts me that I'm not interested because they are not female?

Anyone straight who has ever had the slightest sexual thought about someone of the same sex should immediately renounce their heterosexuality and identify as bisexual?

Well in that case am sure then most people would be the B part of LGB, wonder if all heterosexual people could appropropriate LGB jobs, funding, support on basis that they once had a same sex fantasy . It would skew ONS stats for sure .

We are currently faced with a full on attack on women's sex-based rights - a misogynist and bullying campaign
Lord Lucas

Jj the speeches have been going on for about four hours. Only one of which was not in favour of correct language.

Lord Winston, one of the foremost and respected reproductive doctors, reminds the House that humans have around 30 trillion cells in our bodies that originates at the moment of embyonic genesis, and they are all either XX or XY

Lesbians don't have a Y chromosome.

twitter.com/IsHomophobia/status/1351961187148304386?s=19 The thread on this Twitter profile shows Transmen attacking gay men who aren't attracted to them.

Lord Hunt "we must not countenance the erasure of women".

If you are sexually attracted to the opposite sex, and freely and enthusiastically have sex with the opposite sex you cannot claim to be homosexual, no. If you have sexually attracted to the same sex, freely and enthusiastically have sex with the same sex you cannot claim to be heterosexual.

Says who? And why is this down to what you've done rather than what you've fantasised about. Surely someone who has become sexually aroused at the thought of having sex with someone of the same sex also counts - that's lots of people by the way: www.glamour.com/story/this-just-in-half-of-heterosex

At this point categories become meaningless and stop reflecting people's lives. A gay man, in a gay relationship, who has no interest in a relationship with a woman but may very occassionally have a sexual experience with a woman, or a fantasy about it, is still a gay man who faces homophobia on the grounds of being gay, who has gay political interests such as gay marriage and who would probably feel he was being deceptive and wasting people's time if he called himself bisexual on a dating app when he had no interest in a relationship with a woman.

Holding the view that people cant change sex and safeguarding womens rights to safety privacy and dignity is not an extreme view. What rights do trans people not have at present? If it is about access to places that are not for their biological sex, then they need to fight for third spaces or obtain a GRC .

"This extreme ideology does not want equal rights whilst recognises our differences. It wants to deny those differences exist at all. Happily that agenda has been rolled back today" - Lord Lilley

Yeah I remember that climate change denying Tory hasbeen.

"I've got a little list / Of benefit offenders who I'll soon be rooting out / And who never would be missed / They never would be missed. / There's those who make up bogus claims / In half a dozen names / And councillors who draw the dole / To run left-wing campaigns / They never would be missed / They never would be missed. / There's young ladies who get pregnant just to jump the housing queue / And dads who won't support the kids / of ladies they have ... kissed / And I haven't even mentioned all those sponging socialists / I've got them on my list / And there's none of them be missed / There's none of them be missed." Lord Lilley

Are you really reduced to defining sexual orientation as someone who might once have said ooh, I like your top?

Just so you can rehash the word lesbian to include men?

"This extreme ideology does not want equal rights whilst recognises our differences. It wants to deny those differences exist at all. Happily that agenda has been rolled back today" - Lord Lilley

Going right back to the beginning (sgouldn't be here have work to do!), but this caught my thoughts:

There are extreme positions on all sides.

Is it extreme to use the word 'woman' to refer to 'adult human female'? Or to refer to pregnant women, to talk of menstruation, pregnancy, and menopause as life events for women?

Because all these things are being positioned as "hate" "bigotry" and 'transphobia."

So no, there is only one side pushing extremism. And it isn't women ...

There are also men who claim to be straight but have sex with men but they arent' straight. They are bisexual. Sorry, I fundamentally disagree that people can define themselves as they wish and no-one can disagree with this.

So this applies to straight people as well? Anyone straight who has ever had the slightest sexual thought about someone of the same sex should immediately renounce their heterosexuality and identify as bisexual?

Why are women the only ones that need to show empathy op?

I started from a very understanding place, but the erosion of rights, even language is very scary.

I'm all for campaigning for better mental health support all round. I'd happily push for that for individuals with gender dysphoria, but there doesn't seem to be a demand for it. In fact, even suggesting it is considered transphobic.