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Original poster

Have things gone too far?

338 replies

Okbussitout · 25/02/2021 08:51

I saw a tiktok comment thread saying that if you wouldn't have sex with a trans person you're transphobic. My thinking on this is sexuality is quite complex. But for example I've had gay friends say to me they feel really grossed out by the opposite sex genitals) both gay men and women) so if someone has a penis but presents as a woman (this isn't an argument about passing) then it's transphobic not to be attracted to them because they have genitals of the opposite sex that you are attracted to. Primarily I'd say I'm straight and a big part of that is my enjoyment of my partner's penis. (sorry that statement is tmi and redic to type)

This got me thinking about gc argument on here. For the first time I was thinking this doesn't make logical sense. You can dress how you want, call yourself what you want, use the spaces you want, as actually I don't think most trans people are a threat. I'm happy for trans women to be women. But I feel trying to dictate who people have sex is too much.

I'm sort of musing, but also wonder if actually on both sides there is such adversity that there's no going back? With increasingly wild arguments on both sides. So how would there be a way forward from here?

I'm wondering if trans people are angry because they feel their bodies don't match their gender in their head. I've had on and of mental health issues so can imagine this feels awful. I'm also fat so know what it's like to be discriminated against. Maybe gc women are angry because they already feel ver discriminated against and are now told the rights we have are not needed. So yeah I just wonder if this debate is at a point with no way forward reasonable way forward. I'd like to know people's views on this.

OP posts:
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Original poster
Okbussitout · 25/02/2021 19:19

I understand the need for certain language to be used. Especially when there are protections in law. So I'm not trying to say you're awkward by pointing out the difference. This would be the same for other protected characteristics.

I do also get that lots of people have said the same things many times before.

Tbh there are some back and forth bits I'm skipping over but getting a gist from. So it's not actually been too much!

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/02/2021 19:18

It's not "based on perception", that is one of the grounds on which a person can be discriminated against. Anyone can be. So if someone mistakenly genuinely thinks a male is a woman and discriminates against them on that basis, that is rightly illegal. Or if they mistakenly think they are black or Muslim or disabled.

BuntingEllacott · 25/02/2021 19:18

Magdalen forever❤

OP her videos are excellent if you want to grasp a lot of this. She's quite the dry wit too.Smile

jj1968 · 25/02/2021 19:18

If you truly believe that TWAW OP, and you believe that heterosexual men are sexually attracted to women, then by default you beleive that heterosexual men are sexually attracted to TW.

Only many aren't are they, in reality.

I kind of wish they weren't sometimes but many are. It's not gay men keeping the massive trans sex industry afloat.

jj1968 · 25/02/2021 19:15

You really should read the equalities act.

The Equalities Act is based on perception, not rigid definitions.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/02/2021 19:15

Then can consider themselves what they like. People who have a penis aren't lesbian, women who are sexually attracted to men aren't lesbian.

It really is quite simple.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/02/2021 19:14

Trans people have absolutely said "genital preferences are transphobic". Riley J Dennis made a video about it, here brilliantly skewered by the late, wonderful Magdalen Berns RIP Thanks:

Winterjoy · 25/02/2021 19:14

Sorry loads of spelling mistakes - I'm tired!

Datun · 25/02/2021 19:14

It is simply reality however that there are some lesbians, who consider themselves lesbians who might consider it and in fact have done in some cases.

Then can consider themselves what they like. People who have a penis aren't lesbian, women who are sexually attracted to men aren't lesbian.

You really should read the equalities act.

Winterjoy · 25/02/2021 19:12

Haven't rtft so may already have been said...

OP these to opinions you have stated contradict each other:

"I'm happy for trans women to be women. But I feel trying to dictate who people have sex is too much."

If you truly believe that TWAW OP, and you believe that heterosexual men are sexually attracted to women, then by default you beleive that heterosexual men are sexually attracted to TW.

Only many aren't are they, in reality.

This is why so many people are choosing the TWAW hill to die on. Because changing the meaning of a descriptor that is so deeply entrenched in every aspect of life has extroardinarily wide reaching implications.

FindTheTruth · 25/02/2021 19:03

@JustTurtlesAllTheWayDown

When you look at the sticking points from women's side, it's about trying to retain even our most basic boundaries, rights and protections. If you look through this board and what women are angry about, it's things like refuges being defunded in the name of 'gender equality' and anti-FGM campaigners like Hibo Wardere being piled on for not prioritising trans women. Because we're vocal about objecting to those things, we get called bigoted and we're angry about that too. I've never seen women picketing or trying to get a trans shelter defunded for example. Its simply not a both sides situation. If the trans movement moves to a point where they stop trying to remove women's boundaries and rights, I genuinely wouldn't be in the least bit interested in arguing with them. I will always support gender non conformity and the right of people to express gender however they fancy. I will also fight against the removal of women's rights. I would like trans activists to do the same and stop framing women's rights as transphobic.
Flowers @JustTurtlesAllTheWayDown
PotholeParadies · 25/02/2021 18:56

OP, I appreciate you're slightly taken aback by the way the thread has gone, but I've realised that at some point in the last few years, the definition of lesbian has become oddly muddied.

It's become imperative for lesbians to hammer out what "lesbian" means, rather than assume everyone is on the same page and then get broadsided with the homophobia later.

I know you've been shocked by the examples of homophobia put up in this thread. Bunting is getting directly targeted by this crap and has been trying to alert other women to it for yonks.

BuntingEllacott · 25/02/2021 18:55

[quote Okbussitout]@BuntingEllacott OK orientation not preference. I understand when protected by law language means something but I was using it interchangeably. Orientation it is though. I do feel I agree with you regarding yuur sexuality yet you're looking for disagreement or acting as if I disagree.[/quote]
I am asking for clear terms, and given that in the past week lesbians have been deleted on FWR for stating the facts about their situation, and a poster is merrily and without censure yet again ploughing through a thread on here doing the usual anti-lesbian schtick of trying to obscure the meaning of words, these things are important.

I appreciate it's tedious, but I am giving you the courtesy of explaining why it's important, given that you asked the questions. This particular aspect may not affect you, but one of things you'll probably pick up quite quickly is that another aspect of the ideology will, and accurate language becomes vital. I'm not attacking you, I am just being direct. This isn't an insult, I'm actually giving you the respect you deserve as an intelligent woman without needing to couch everything in patronizing syrup.

But have some Flowers anyway, because this has ended up as a bit of a bunfight and that's not really your fault. I hope you're getting something out of it nonetheless.

334bu · 25/02/2021 18:55

But is it homophobic for a male person who identifies as a woman to describe themselves as a lesbian? Is this not at the very least grossly disrespectful?

jj1968 · 25/02/2021 18:52

@notyourhandmaid

Trying to control who people - specifically women - sleep with is such obvious MRA stuff. Choosing a sexual partner is not like giving someone a job. You are not obliged to be 'fair'.
But that's not what's happening beyond a few dickish comments on twitter. If it genuinely was mainstream 'trans ideology' that lesbians should be coerced into sex with trans women then you wouldn't have gender critical people producing false flag stickers with the trans flag on them claming "genital preferences are transphobic". You wouldn't need to, because trans people would be saying it themselves. The gender critical movement is desperate to push this myth.

It is not transphobic if a lesbian doesn't want to have relationships with a trans woman, and no trans woman wants a relationship with someone who doesn't fancy them. It is simply reality however that there are some lesbians, who consider themselves lesbians who might consider it and in fact have done in some cases. If people want to decide they aren't allowed to call themselves lesbians anymore that's up to them, but personally I think sexuality is a complex and highly personal business and that people have the right to define their own sexuality rather than have one imposed on them.

Biscuitsanddoombar · 25/02/2021 18:51

@Datun

No-one really cares

👍

I expect baroness barker will be fed up she’s made such a public arse of herself over an issue TRA don’t even care about! Perhaps she didnt get the memo...
FindTheTruth · 25/02/2021 18:51

@XDownwiththissortofthingX

There are extreme positions on all sides. I think the problem is that people on either side are now latching on to some of the more outlandish and ridiculous statements and views, and then acting like every single person on the opposite side of the argument subscribes to these views and opinions, when that simply isn't the case.

The idea that people are being phobic because of sexual preference isn't a mainstream or widely held view, even among trans rights activists, so it doesn't really help with credibility when you attack all trans activists as if they all subscribe to and unquestioningly accept this view.

The same in the other direction of course.

That may be true but unfortunately it's now mainstream in online apps and platforms to kick off people for saying they are same sex attracted. For example lesbians being kicked off lesbian dating apps for saying they are females attracted to females.
Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/02/2021 18:49

Which is funny, because we were told yesterday that gender critical people barely exist in the US, but today it's such a huge problem that it needs to be dealt with with guns.)

24 hours is a long time! It's great that they were able to build a movement so very very quickly.

rawalpindithelabrador · 25/02/2021 18:48

@notyourhandmaid

Trying to control who people - specifically women - sleep with is such obvious MRA stuff. Choosing a sexual partner is not like giving someone a job. You are not obliged to be 'fair'.
Exactly! Female social conditioning already plays enough of a role, and you see it on here nearly daily 'Oh, you're so shallow', 'Give him a chance' 'Probably just shy dig deeper' and JADEing twat behaviour. You're allowed to have whatever boundary you'd like when it comes to whom you share you time with and sleep with. That's not bigotry, that's bodily autonomy.
Original poster
Okbussitout · 25/02/2021 18:44

@BuntingEllacott OK orientation not preference. I understand when protected by law language means something but I was using it interchangeably. Orientation it is though. I do feel I agree with you regarding yuur sexuality yet you're looking for disagreement or acting as if I disagree.

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/02/2021 18:42

Absolutely. What you needed to have been looking at is the reaction - or lack of it. It's the reactions to people being idiots or sensible that tell you whether you're in trouble yet.

We're in deep trouble.

Indeed. Good point.

notyourhandmaid · 25/02/2021 18:40

Trying to control who people - specifically women - sleep with is such obvious MRA stuff. Choosing a sexual partner is not like giving someone a job. You are not obliged to be 'fair'.

BuntingEllacott · 25/02/2021 18:40

Oh, and a surgically altered penis is in no way analogous to a vulva/vagina. So even then, nope. Still not female.

Datun · 25/02/2021 18:39

No-one really cares

👍

jj1968 · 25/02/2021 18:38

What has been the TRA reaction on Twatter?

No-one really cares, it'll be a bit shit if a trans man MP gets pregnant one day but I'm sure they'll be able to work round it. Of all the things you think keep trans people up at night.

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