Have things gone too far?

I started out over a year ago, thinking that surely no-one would be awful and homophobic enough to harass lesbians about not being sexually attracted to penises. One moron on the internet isn't a growing social ill, I thought. I can find any kind of idiot purporting that their views are totally normal, I thought.

Then I started looking into it and asking around. It has become more and more mainstream amongst younger people. I've joined twitter and tried to counter the opinions of seemingly-normal university students that lesbian does not mean "attracted to feminine presenting people". They just insist that you're being transphobic and hearts-not-parts.

The Irish celebrity Rory O'Neill tried to disprove that lesbians were being harassed late last year. He said people said it a lot, but no-one would present him with evidence.

Lesbians on twitter deluged him with evidence of what was going on and how difficult life had become for them. He ignored it.

twitter.com/PantiBliss/status/1322900409594351618?s=19

DH says men's is very unselfconscious- do your business and leave kind of deal. He's very body conscious so would be sensitive to any 'vibe'.

They're also in there, for what, 40 seconds tops? It's a different ballgame to women's where you'll potentially be in longer, more vulnerable with kacks down etc.

Looking at the enormous ladies cue I know which I would choose if I was a penis haver ( or if I didn't give a shit that my presence might make some men bashful and uncomfortable)

by supporting the rights of males who "identify as lesbians" (also called "transwomen") over the rights of lesbians to choose their sexual partners (on the basis of their sex, not how they "identify") is in fact enforcing heterosexuality on lesbians

Lesbian women have been deleted this week, by HQ, for discussing their objection to those enforcing this heterosexuality on women for their own personal benefit, and being all about their needs and feelings and rights with no interest whatsoever in how lesbian women may feel about this.

Let that sink in. People who believe in enforced heterosexuality for women, and women having no right to even talk about their anger and resentment of this homophobia and dehumanising of women, reported this to HQ. And HQ listened and supported them.

In terms of winning hearts, minds, leading somewhere with sunshine, rainbows and everyone happy side by side? #fail

I'm fucking sickened and increasingly angry, resentful, and determined to stand up to this shit. If you're determined to stamp on my toes don't fucking demand I smile at you while you do it.

I would really like to see it directed at those men who are hostile towards transwomen using the men's toilets.

That would require any such men to be identified first... They may be apocryphal.

Why is it that I only ever see 'just want to pee' addressed to women?
I would really like to see it directed at those men who are hostile towards transwomen using the men's toilets.

I'd argue that the women raped in India whilst peeing in fields for the lack of female toilets 'just want to pee'.

I don't buy,' just want to pee' elsewise as otherwise the mens would suffice.

When trans was just a small group and not the giant umbrella I would have even said the disabled could perhaps be used. But D's is handicapped and don't want to share his facilities with anyone who fancies them when the potential group is enormous.

It'd be nice if period shaming could be eradicated as a social solution. But menstrual flying pigs are more likely.

Men can aim at the porcelain to minimise sound. Women can't. Or if they do, it's fluke.

Also, although I haven't taken a poll, just through general bemoaning, I don't know many women who don't hover. If they can, of course. It's not always easy.

(Also, as an aside, contrary to certainly what I thought, men aiming at the near side porcelain, rather than the far side minimises the 'splash zone' apparently.)

It is an are most women can relate to without thinking too deeply about it.

yes

And better for virtue signalling. “I don’t mind sharing a toilet with a trans woman” sounds better than “I don’t mind sufferers of domestic abuse and rape sharing spaces with trans women, unlikely to happen to me anyway

I think this is true too. I do see people switch to toilets because they cannot be seen to say this. They can also bring out points like 'they just want to pee', and 'these males need the protection from male violence too', and 'you have been sharing for decades and not ever noticed'.

But they cannot be seen stating why they think it is appropriate for victims to share their spaces in shelters etc when the victims have no choice in the matter knowing that the safe space they have will likely be withdrawn if they make a complaint.

Just like the argument was brought out in Scotland recently that specifying that a victim wanted a female health care professional after rape and assault was a problem due to 'lack of females in that profession available' so did not want to add the clause into law. It was a distraction.

Rather than admit that they seemed to not care that traumatised women's wishes were being ignored in the pursuit of inclusiveness.

Now we know the majority of penis owners…absolutely would not do anything like that, but the problem is, some would and this is the reason we have sex segregated spaces which include toilets, changing facilities, dating sites etc. because we just can't tell who will and who won't.

I don't know what the general situation is in countries where sharing has always been common altho' I've read enough accounts to think it's not as rosy as it's made out to be.

If it's introduced in countries where it's not been the custom, with our recent social history of amplifying and facilitating abhorrent views when people feel they have permission (eg, uptick in anti-faith, anti-race rhetoric in public) - I'd be apprehensive that allowing this would lead to intimidation and abuse. Think of the number of men who are street angels, house devils - I think they'd be emboldened by their legally supported right to enact what would be seen as micro-aggressions like following women into a space after brushing them off.

Power corrupts. Absolute power etc.

I blardy love you Rufus.

And better for virtue signalling. “I don’t mind sharing a toilet with a trans woman” sounds better than “I don’t mind sufferers of domestic abuse and rape sharing spaces with trans women, unlikely to happen to me anyway

I dont mind sharing...but I understand the arguments for religious women, or women who have been abused, sexually assaulted and raped and i dont like the idea of self id or men taking the piss

So if i have to come down on one side or the other when it comes to bogs, which i do, ill come down on the side of women

I think the conversation goes to toilets due to two reasons:

1. it is a diversion for some as it nicely focus the conversation on an area far away from domestic violence sufferers, shelters, sports and prisons.

2. It is an are most women can relate to without thinking too deeply about it. And better for virtue signalling. “I don’t mind sharing a toilet with a trans woman” sounds better than “I don’t mind sufferers of domestic abuse and rape sharing spaces with trans women, unlikely to happen to me anyway”.

Until period shaming stops men have no business in women's facilities.

You're not suggesting a social solution to a social problem, are you? That the beneficiaries of a power dynamic should be socialised into giving up abhorrent behaviour?

Dangerous territory, TheBuffster - where will it end? Aside from girls having an uninterrupted education and not being targets for bullying in a way that can carry over into later life. Dangerous.

@gardenbird48 that reminds me of teenage boys attitudes to periods at secondary school.
I never got on with towels and used tampons. Obviously I didn't shout this around but word got around. Cue awful sneering comments and Buffster is a dirty slut etc.
If you'd have added them actually being able to go in there I most certainly would have stopped attending school.
Until period shaming stops men have no business in women's facilities.
I realise it's gone back to toilets like a boomerang. What's up with that?

Hovering is a fact of life for women. Too many toilets only have the bowl and no seat. When I saw this, it really brought home why we still need single sex spaces.

These are two very prominent and outspoken people discussing and mocking women's toilet habits. And to be clear, highlighting 'bum meet seat' in this way and context is undeniably mocking.

gardenbird, that makes me so angry

This popped up today - two high profile tw discussing women’s toilet habits on social media.

When I go to the toilets I don’t really want some sniggering person who doesn’t share the same sex as me (I can’t say it more clearly as I’m on two strikes) in the next cubicle listening, judging, and then posting it on social media.

It may be claimed that girls could do that too and that may be true but they are far less likely as they share the same body type so are hardly likely to find the idea of hovering above the seat because of germs quite so hilarious.

The majority of TW obviously have the advantage of being able to pee standing up.

Sounds perfectly rational to me, IAmAWoman.

many women are overriding their instinct in order to be kind

I agree. This is what I was trying to formulate and express yesterday - women have spent their lives being careful about males. Males on the whole don't seem to understand this - I imagine it's perhaps impossible to understand if you aren't of the sex that is (in general) smaller, and physically weaker, and able to be impregnated, willingly or otherwise.

When 'metoo' happened, what surprised me was how the men reacted - so many of them really honestly had apparently no idea of what life was like for women, how that fear is kind of background noise for so many of us, how we learn to live with it and around it. Almost all the women that I know have experienced sexual assault, harassment, rape - at the hands of men. It had never occurred to me that men wouldn't know this!

I'm not saying women cower - far from it - I am saying women carry rape alarms, keep a baseball bat/knife by the bed, avoid dark streets, tell a friend where they're going, check their drink, look behind them, cross the street, don't run at night - there is a very, very long list, but I'm sure you get the idea. Risk and risk-mitigation and risk-avoidance is drummed into us from girlhood, from when you first get whistled at/propositioned (usually maybe from around, what, 11? 12?).

We grow up learning how to identify and avoid the dangerous ones - the dangerous ones are virtually all male.

We know males. We know who they are and what they are capable of. It's not paranoia, it's a simple statement of fact to say that women are at risk from males as a class, and the only rational response is caution around males.

I have even asked the trans people who post on here for their evidence and haven’t really got anywhere.

Well, yes, you can bet that if there were any incidents they would be waving them as examples repeatedly. At some point an ongoing absence of evidence begins to look like evidence of absence.

The only incident that I've ever seen gain any media traction was one transwoman being "assaulted" by two women in a women's toilet. (IIRC, the case was dismissed and the "victim" in that case was convicted of some sexual(?) assault some months later, possibly suggesting the report may not have been entirely truthful).

Oh, and there was something more recently about a man going into the women's to assault a transwoman who was in there after women complained. Both those were outside the UK though.

And you do hear complaints from transwomen about being thrown out of women's toilets or getting funny looks or whatever.

What you never seem to hear is stories of what happened to them in men's toilets. Not even anecdotal ones, let alone real reports.

Again, only example I can think of is from the other side - Fionne Orlander

Was out in Manc, used the gents, one cubicle, no toilet seat but floor to ceiling door ty God. Came out and washed my hands guy using urinal looks over his shoulder and asks if this is the guys. I say "I am a guy" and he smiles & says "you're a pretty guy" I thank him and leave.

(The implication being that Fionne getting that much attention was unusual.)

It seems unlikely to me that transwomen are at higher risk in men's toilets than women's. They would likely be safer in third spaces themselves than if they were clocked in the women's.

OP, you still haven't answered the Staniland Question.

Here's a link to it:

en.everybodywiki.com/The_Staniland_Question

I'm really interested to see how you'll answer it.

Comments about being unfairly discriminatory if you don't fancy anyone are being made by basically incel MRAs however they identify, chippy at no-one or not the right people fancying them or being able to have has much sex as they like (or they think they'd like, in reality a lot would rather wank and look at porn), and that people owe them their attention.

Ok, I was going to start my own thread about my views, but it does seem appropriate to put them here. I'm not sure if this sounds like a conspiracy theory, I've name changed and I'm happy to be told I'm way off mark and as I've never put it anywhere but in my head before it might come out all wrong but here goes.

The argument about genitals only seems to come up when discussing dating, but I think it's much wider than that and should be included in all the discussions about toilets, refuges, prisons, changing rooms and all sex segregated spaces as for me, genitals is a massive part of why I don't want trans women in my space. Now the answer you usually get from most TRA's is 'what's between my legs has nothing to do with you', and for the most part, I'd agree with them. I truly couldn't care less.

Until they're in my space.

The uncomfortable truth for most penis owners is that a penis can be used as a weapon. The extreme of this is rape, but there is also a whole load of offences, before then, including exposure, wanking in public, voyerism, all of which would involve a penis somehow. If a man decided to use his penis against a woman, most would be able to over power her, shock her, scare her into submission, and no matter the outcome, even if she fights back, it's likely to leave emotional scars. Women do not have the same arsenal.

As women, we have to trust that every male we meet doesn't want to use their penis as a weapon against us. It doesn't matter how big, small, skinny or strong they are, it's the man's choice whether or not to offend against us, if they want to we have absolutley no choice about it and it's horrible.

Now we know the majority of penis owners (including TW) absolutely would not do anything like that, but the problem is, some would and this is the reason we have sex segregated spaces which include toilets, changing facilities, dating sites etc. because we just can't tell who will and who won't.

It's nearly always possible to tell a penis owner, even though there may be a few ambiguous folk, usually within one or two interactions it becomes obvious. We have to treat all penis owners, no matter how they are dressed, with caution. All women will do it instinctively, and I think, that many women are overriding their instinct in order to be kind.

‘Now’ should be ‘not.’

I think people forget that there’s a difference between finding someone good looking and being sexually attracted to someone. For example, I can appreciate how beautiful a woman looks, but I wouldn’t want to have sex with a woman. Just doesn’t interest me. I wouldn’t want to have sex with a woman, whether they are biologically a woman or just identify as one.

Are straight people prejudiced if they don’t want a gay relationship? Are gay people prejudiced if they only want to have sex with people of the same sex as them? Of course now. So that means people aren’t being prejudiced or “transphobic” if they don’t want to have sex with trans people.

I wonder how many transpeople there are in the UK? I guess we will never find out now because of what has happened with the census. I don't see how that helps anyone, particularly anyone who is transgender. The whole idea of the census is to find out what is actually going on in society so that needs can be provided.

Have no problem personally with anyone being legally recognised as having a different sex from their both sex and certainly not with anyone who is non-traditional, fluid or whatever. I do think things like women only facilities and sport need a great deal of careful thought, and not dogma, as whatever you think, people who start off as male biologically are vastly more likely to be criminals, violent, rapists and abusers and this impacts on all women and men themselves, trans or otherwise. A source of a lot of the problems transgender people face is male violence, not TERFS.

Aren't most people a bit fluid? Who the heck is stereotypically female all the time? I don't think anyone would mistake me for a male though it did happen a couple of times from the back when I had a pixie cut in my early 20s. I fancy men and am married to one, I would never rule out fancying a woman but it has never happened. I am very much into football and used to play, and work in a (vastly) male dominated industry. I'm glad I don't feel I have to change into a man to do this, but perhaps sometimes it would help.

I feel like feminists and transpeople don't have to be poles apart in their views and indeed can be one and the same.