Have things gone too far?

@jj1968 the misgendered furry & oestrogen in the covid vaccine made me cackle.

Thanks JJ for the information on Iran.

There is still a university called SOAS. The School of African & Oriental Studies.

It is massively racist to use oriental to describe people

Not in Britain, it isn't. Oriental is still a very common term used to describe both things and people from the Orient. It is far more specific than 'Asian'. It is not used in an offensive way, nor is it generally taken to be offensive.

It is massively racist to use oriental to describe people.

I am a straight woman. My type is dark men, I don't generally find blond, blue eyed men sexually attractive. Does that make me phobic to blonds? I am straight and as others have said a penis is pretty integral to sex for me. However, I find many butch lesbians attractive and think I could cope without a penis in that scenario. What I don't find sexually attractive are feminine looking women or feminine looking/acting men. I could never have a sexual relationship with a transwoman, with or without penis, because, I guess, I am attracted to masculinity. That really has little to do with genitals and I wouldn't suddenly want to have sex with a very feminine presenting, camp man, or transwoman, just because they showed me their penis. These things are surely innate for the vast majority not people?

I don't find oriental men attractive

Some people would say that is mildly racist though. You’re ruling out an entire group based on race.

Its a bizarre theory/statement.

I'm attracted to men. Not all men. I'm not attracted to ginger & very blond men. I don't find oriental men attractive . I don't find tatoos or smokers attractive. I don't want to sleep with someone with a vagina. So if a dark haired, non smoking, non tattooed trans man came my way I probably wouldn't be attracted to him if he had a vagina. It is not transphobic to not fancy someone. Just as its not racist to not find a certain race unattractive.

Attraction is not something we can control and we all like different things.

It's a cliche in leftist circles isn't it.
Yes we'll get round to women's concerns. Right after we secure x-y-z.
make me a sandwich and give me a blowjob

And then we'll address your petty little concerns

How many people who don't see the need for sex based rights are pretty young so haven't had say the experiences around maternity or unfair treatment in the workplace?

I think you are right about this. They live in a world where they have been told they are equal and have not yet encountered the institutionalised sexism which older women know only too well.
They also can't believe that these rights which second wave feminists fought so hard for could disappear. Those of us who are older and know what it is like to suffer discrimination and have seen rights torn from women in other parts of the world, are a lot more cynical. Women are always told to put their needs last. A prime example here in Scotland is women being told to shut up in case we get in the way of independence. Well not this time, this time for all our sakes I hope to God women "won't wheesht".

I suppose God is a cipher for morality in a lot of cases. (Disclaimer etc)
Twisting morality to suit yourself is a bit of a given for humanity.

Why would a heterosexual woman in Iran marry a 'man' with whom there was no possibility of children? Lesbian?

Possibly, possibly pushed into it by family, possibly love or maybe some other reasons. One of the things in the documentary I mentioned talked about how they'd found something in the Qu'ran which allows divorce if women have some kind of reproductive disorder, and so that meant a lot of them end up as sex workers, but they have to go to an Iman with the man and get a 24 hour marriage licence and then it's just about somehow within religious law. There could be all kind of strange rules and customs which may well include stealth lesbians marrying trans men who just keep putting off the surgery. I don't think Iran is really the way a lot of people presume, and that as long as people bodge a bit and don't piss off the local religious police they are freer than people imagine.

On a sidenote I've always found it quite funny how religious communities employ loopholes to get out of things they don't like, as if God would be like, damn you got me there and not throw them into the fiery pits of hell for being smart arses.

Rather a lot of gender stereotyping going on there, though.

I find it interesting that there is always a lot of gender stereotyping in the stories of trans people. This is from another of jj's links:

“I knew from the age of seven that I was different from the boys next door and from my friends and other people I knew. I wanted to have long hair like my sister. And varnish my nails. I wanted to put on her clothes and hug her beautiful doll that my father had brought for her from a trip to France. But my father's threats and reprimands and discussions with my mother and their emphasis on me being a boy tore apart all my dreams."

Would trans people even exist if there were no gender stereotypes?

Rather a lot of gender stereotyping going on there, though. Role playing.

I think most trans people are probably too terrifed to do anything else, and so a lot of what they say and do needs to be seen as stringly influenced by a potentially very violent regime. There was an interesting documentary on trans women in Iran on the beeb a few years ago which is worth tracking down if you're interested. One of the more depressing bits was when they asked them about gay men and they were desperate to put as much distance between them as possible, basically towing the state's line that they were deviants. You could see in their eyes they didn't mean it - there has been a thriving underground LGBT scene in Tehran for a long time which they may well have been part of - but they were just too scared to say anything else because they know how precarious ther own position is.

People of my type should regard themselves as complete men. I am married, have a job, and pay for my wife . .. I have told my wife, like a man, that I will make her happy. I am putting double energy to prove myself to her, to my family, and to society. We [trans men] have responsibilities and ghyrat for our families and wives because we see ourselves as the providers. I am a feminist, but a woman is a woman. Believe me

Thanks!

Rather a lot of gender stereotyping going on there, though. Role playing. Obviously there will not be any children?

Why would a heterosexual woman in Iran marry a 'man' with whom there was no possibility of children? Lesbian?

Those who have been operated on to become men are 100 times manlier than a natural man because they have honor [ghyrat] and responsibility . . . Going through the surgery proves it. People of my type should regard themselves as complete men. I am married, have a job, and pay for my wife . .. I have told my wife, like a man, that I will make her happy. I am putting double energy to prove myself to her, to my family, and to society. We [trans men] have responsibilities and ghyrat for our families and wives because we see ourselves as
the providers. I am a feminist, but a woman is a woman. Believe me

Jesus that's grim and very sad.

In theory they are men and could marry women and would be treated as men in law

In theory.....do you have any evidence of this in practice?

I don't know why you keep trying to suggest violence and murderous thoughts from women against trans people jj - I don't know a single woman who would ever have considered that even for a second

Absolutely! the very thought or sentiment would be alien to most people; certainly here.

What most have an issue with is the positing of an internal feeling as, somehow, some kind of marker that exists in objective reality:that it might mean something substantial beyond the person feeling it.

Internal feelings and identifications are one thing. We all have them and they shift and change with time. But the idea that an ephemeral identity is a fixed marker of reality is something altogether different.

I think people have the right to fancy who they like . I don’t think I would find a trans man attractive . I don’t even think I like the idea, it would put me off sexually . The few trans men I know still appear feminine, which puts me off . That’s ok . We don’t all have to fancy everyone . We can still respect others .

Do you happen to know if transmen are considered worth 'more' and given more freedom after transition or do they remain at the bottom of the pile? Just curious as to whether women there could identify into a more privileged position, as things are pretty restrictive there.

In theory they are men and could marry women and would be treated as men in law. There is quite a famous Iranian actor who's a trans man. In practice though I suspect a lot of trans men aren't so lucky. From what I've read at least it seems to be very divided with some very traditional religious communities and a younger more secular urban population pushing for reform so I imagine how someone is treated is where they end up. There's an article here about honour killings of both trans men and trans women (and which briefly discusses the wider situation for trans men) which shows in some parts of Iran there's a very long way to go: iranwire.com/en/features/7398

That's a pretty shitty state of affairs in Iran, JJ. Massive problems with homophobia there.

In Iran a woman's life is worth half man's, so pretty shitty all round unless you happen to be a man. Then life's a bit peachier.

Do you happen to know if transmen are considered worth 'more' and given more freedom after transition or do they remain at the bottom of the pile? Just curious as to whether women there could identify into a more privileged position, as things are pretty restrictive there.
And, no, definitely not something we'd want to emulate in either case.

Remember that indecent exposure is an offence. Some male people like exposing their genitals to women and young girls (it’s happened to me at least twice). How do we determine which naked men will get a kick out of exposing themselves in a communal changing room full of teenage girls? (Btw I am not accusing all TW of being predators, I believe that most aren’t - but we have huge evidence to show that some are

Yes the reason why it's ok for one group of males to potentially be naked with women and not others is totally illogical.
As to the prevalence of this particular sexual misconduct , I would reckon from my own experience that it is relatively common ( Starting at the age of 11 and numerous other incidents after that)

It's always been stark raving obvious that just as in Iran, a certain kind of family in the West was going to find it easier to think that God had accidentally put a pink soul in a boy's body than accept that their son wasn't stereotypically masculine and/or was gay. I mean. Come on. I wasn't born yesterday. I cannot understand why they think this, but I also believe evolution should be taught in schools, so no meeting of minds between me and them is likely.

Evolution is far more accepted within Islam than within Christianity so it's quite likely they do teach it in schools in Iran.

The situation for trans people in Iran is dire. Trans people of any description are expected to immediately present for treatment and must undergo full medical treatment including surgery or fall foul of the laws prohibiting cross dressing and homosexuality - which could, in extremis, mean the death penalty.

Western trans activism had nothing to do wth this policy and do not support it. It began because in 1987 trans women Maryam Molkara managed to break into Ayatollah Khomeini's compound and after enduring a savage beating from the guards managed to gain an audience with the Ayatollah himself. During this meeting she managed to persuade him to grant a Fatwa for her to have gender reassignment surgery, largely on the basis that it's not something that's actually forbidden in the Qur'an. This religious ruling paved the way for Iranian trans people to be able to gain surgery - although this is governed by religious law not civil law.

It was never intended that this Fatwa be used to convert homosexuals, and in fact a process known as 'filtering' is specifically employed to try and weed them out - essentially transsexual people are seen as ill somehow and can be cured whilst gay and lesbian people are deviants who must be punished. It is not acceptable under current religious law for someone who is gay or lesbian to transition out of it - although it's near certain that local religious leaders and families have at times pressurised gay and lesbian people to attempt it.

Whilst post transition trans people are legally recognised in their aquired sex, including being able to marry, in reality they often face persecution and oppression with many ending up as survival sex workers. And of course they may still face persecution on the grounds of their sexuality - a trans man in a relationship with a man or a trans woman with a woman would fall foul of religious laws forbidding homosexuality. So it's pretty shit all round as it goes and not something any trans person would really want to emulate anywhere else.