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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Muslim women and trans policies in the workplace

136 replies

TroubledBetty · 24/02/2021 13:54

Hello

The company I have been working for under a year has just published a new trans policy document which I read last week and has caused me to feel anxious about going back in to the work place.

What is making me feel ill is the statement that a 'trans colleagues are entitled to facilities they feel most comfortable using'. For non-binary people, this might mean using gender-neutral facilities or using a combination of different facilities which they feel most comfortable using.' A friend of mine who doesn't work there but is a scholar wrote in on my behalf (I have been too scared) to some EDI people. He quoted scripture from the Qu'ran which says how we cannot use toilets where there are males which aren't children or family members. But if transgender women who are male-bodied people then to myself and other women at my company they are then mixed-sex.

My friend sent on the response from the company to me this morning. It went like this 'Most XYZ offices have toilets with individual stalls with full height dividing walls and a full height lockable door. The individual toilet areas include a washbasin. There is therefore no need to come into contact with someone else whilst using the toilet facility. I am happy to discuss alternative options with XYZ if she is an office where these toilets are not available or have not been clearly signposted.'

I and my colleagues wouldn't be comfortable using these restrooms even with enclosed cubicles. We often will help each other with our veils (we cant do this in front of men) and it is a safe space for us to congregate. I know that many feminists don't approve of the wearing of veils but I am asking you for help and advice.

my thoughts are

is this legal? To restrict access to small spaces where only one Muslim can be at a time when males have freedom to go anywhere they would like

they speak of being 'comfortable' but I would be very 'uncomfortable' coming out of a cubicle to be confronted with a male. We have to pray 5 times a day and before prayer we have to wash (private parts, feet, hands, pat down our hair etc). I would feel extremely uncomfortable doing this if I know that there is a male there or that a male could enter at any time.

I have asked and although there are separate cubicles this to me still counts as 1 restroom.

I have never seen any women's restrooms in the 4 company offices with wash basins. I think these must just be in the Gender Neutral toilets. Should I ask that? Because if that is the case then these are totally inappropriate for us.

shouldn't they have sent out questionnaires to Muslim women or something like that asking us for our opinion?

I am upset by this because I thought this company values itself on being clear thinkers and this has stunned me

OP posts:
BuntingEllacott · 24/02/2021 22:18

And fwiw, I personally disagree with hijab, but that's completely irrelevant to being able to stand with you for your rights as a woman and religious believer to do as you wish with dignity and respect. It is absolutely fundamental to my feminism to have solidarity with women in their own contexts. Reiterating my complete support here.

PotholeParadies · 24/02/2021 22:10

For what it's worth, my opinion is that what women wear on their heads should be solely up to them, and that they're entitled to a single-sex space to adjust it in.

Regardless of anyone's thoughts on hijab, I can't see how it serves women to make them choose between their beliefs or participation in public life.

And that's what this is. Women on MN have been raising this as a concern for a while. Trans rights should not supersede everyone else's rights. When rights and desires conflict, they must be balanced.

If the non-binary people don't feel comfortable using the facilities set aside for their sex, they the company will have to sort out alternative provision for them. But the answer cannot be to give other people your space.

Emeraldshamrock · 24/02/2021 21:59

Please don't think rad fems disapprove of hijab, I have had colleagues who wear hijab and its very clearly their choice 100%
Some of the hijabs are really beautiful, they accentuate the face and smile. Smile

Katjolo · 24/02/2021 21:55

Please challenge this OP! Good luck!

Emeraldshamrock · 24/02/2021 21:55

We all need to stand up and fight this injustice together, from female bathrooms, dressing rooms, sports, women are only getting recognition and still fighting for it on many other levels and now our rights are being eroded.
Women been arrested for speaking out against trans women taking our safe spaced. It is sad.
The really sad part is the young teens being dragged into this as an alternative lifestyle, yes it is all acceptance and love until someone gets hurt.

snow21 · 24/02/2021 21:41

Wishing you all the best with this OP. It’s so sad and frustrating to see women’s rights slowly but steadily stripped away. Well done for standing up for yourself.
It may also be helpful to write to your MP. They are supposed to represent you.
Are there any popular Muslim publications with a wide circulation, that might pick this story up too? The more light shone on this the better.

TroubledBetty · 24/02/2021 21:31

I am overwhelmed by these responses of support. I don't know where to start though.
Part of me just wants to link this thread to my friend's response.

I have been promised a small amount of money so I will contact a lawyer but I need to go armed with questions

OP posts:
StillWeRise · 24/02/2021 20:36

best of luck OP and I'd like to second the suggestion to contact the Muslim Women's Network, I have used their resources (in another context) and heard one of the leaders speak, very inspirational. Please don't think rad fems disapprove of hijab, I have had colleagues who wear hijab and its very clearly their choice. What we disapprove of is men telling women what to do

Delphinium20 · 24/02/2021 20:29

Welcome OP. I'm very sorry that you should even need to point out religion to advocate for you and your fellow women colleagues, but if it helps keep sex-specific spaces, please use it! For what it's worth, I'm very uncomfortable with men in a restroom and I come from a culture where it is normal for the sexes to swim, sunbathe and sauna with very little clothing or in the nude. Yet, It's the intimacy of what we do in toilets and changing rooms that makes most women desire privacy from the opposite sex. The reasons for codifying this in religion isn't terribly different than the reasons feminists want it codified in secular law - we deserve dignity, privacy and safety from the male sex!

Please know you are not alone. In my own country, Muslims and a minority Asian ethnic group with strict sex separate cultures lost out on a women's only swim time at a local gym because they opened it up to males who identify as women. It was so wrong and these things are happening all over. Good luck OP!!!

TroubledBetty · 24/02/2021 20:20

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I think it is obligatory for public bodies (NHS, councils etc) to carry out an EIA when changing any policy

Sadly it isn't. But they are required to ensure Public Sector Equality Duty is met, and if challenged it wouldn't look good that an EIA or similar exercise hadn't been done.

It's not a public sector company, although my friend who wrote on behalf of me works for one of the largest public sector clients my employee has (in Birmingham). He is talking to his EDI team now as they implemented large single occupancy Male and Female toilets off hallways (in stairwells)
OP posts:
Howzaboutye · 24/02/2021 20:11

Sorry for the L Day recommendation, I thought they would be ok as they have supported other female issues like right to breastfeed.

HermioneWeasley · 24/02/2021 19:33

Leigh Day are full trans, they won’t support women.

This has been inevitable for some time, particularly the issue about adjusting hijab with the potential for a male to walk in at any time.

They are in breach of health and safety regs which requires single sex toilets if they are multiple occupancy stalls.

They are likely to be in breach of the Equality Act - they are imposing a provision, criterion or practice which disproportionately impacts on 3 protected characteristics- sex, race and religious belief. They could easily get round this by retaining single sex facilities as well as offering some mixed sex toilets for those who want them.

You need to start with a strongly worded letter to the HR director (can be anonymous), and many companies will offer an anonymous whistleblower line as well. If that does work, I reckon Employment lawyers Ralph Robinson might be prepared to take it on.

Austriana · 24/02/2021 19:23

@SomersetHamlyn

I would consider also making contact with Jewish women's organisations as Orthodox Jews face similar problems.

Do you know Nisa nashim?

This is not true.
Guineapigsarepigs · 24/02/2021 19:16

It's ridiculous that you have to justify yourself, OP. It doesn't matter whether you are a Muslim or not. You are female and should be able to say 'I don't consent to males in female toilets' for any reason at all. No explanation necessary.

Nevertheless I hope that being Muslim makes it easier for them listen to you. There is some good advice on this thread.

BuntingEllacott · 24/02/2021 19:09

Yes, it's worth asking for details of an EIA, even if one wasn't done, as that in itself can form part of the basis for a claim of discrimination.

TroubledBetty, I support you 100%

Sexnotgender · 24/02/2021 19:00

You’ve had some excellent advice so far. I’m sorry you’re having to deal with this. I’d happily donate to a legal challenge if you need one.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/02/2021 18:55

I think it is obligatory for public bodies (NHS, councils etc) to carry out an EIA when changing any policy

Sadly it isn't. But they are required to ensure Public Sector Equality Duty is met, and if challenged it wouldn't look good that an EIA or similar exercise hadn't been done.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/02/2021 18:52

Which cases did they win?

stumbledin · 24/02/2021 18:14

Sorry hit enter too soon.

It looks as if their diveristy training didn't go to well in terms of meeting Stonewall standards! They say:

" ... If you have been treated unfairly because of your age, race, sex, maternity, sexual orientation, religion or disability, we can help. ... "

stumbledin · 24/02/2021 18:12

I didn't know and Leigh Day diversity champions but they have taken on 2 really important cases and won on the basis of sex discrimination.

Emeraldshamrock · 24/02/2021 18:05

I've no practical advice or experience.
It is awful how women are expected to share a private space with the opposite sex under the guises of acceptance.
Surely they must respect your religious views too.

Lifeaintalwaysempty · 24/02/2021 18:04

Sorry you’re in this situation OP. You surely can’t be the only Muslim woman troubled by this, and certainly not the only woman, and I suspect this is happening in workplaces and public spaces more and more frequently.
I wish we had some sort of template letter for any organisations trying to illegally change toilets that you could use in the first instance, that quoted the relevant equality legislation and requirements, to see if this information scared them off without the need for escalation.

BrassyLocks · 24/02/2021 17:59

@MissBarbary
At Muslim homes I've visited, people have a jug or hand held bidet next to the toilet for washing private parts. I think OP was just explaining the washing in general, rather than saying that private parts are washed in the communal sinks!

StillFemale · 24/02/2021 17:54

It may also be worth you sounding out Muslim male colleagues who may be equally as uncomfortable at the possibility of encountering females in the men’s toilets. Whilst it’s significantly less likely it’s a now a possibility with that statement.

I would contribute if you decided to take them to court. I’ve Muslim relatives and I’ve raised my concerns over the impact to Muslims if toilets are made mixed sex. (I did try raising this with the EHRC when theatres changed their toilets but they were dismissive of my concerns)

gardenbird48 · 24/02/2021 17:47

@TroubledBetty

The Equality Impact Assessment is this a procedure that must have taken place in law? Why and is there a resource I can read to find out about this?
I think it is obligatory for public bodies (NHS, councils etc) to carry out an EIA when changing any policy but good practice for any employer to ensure that changes they make are not inadvertently disadvantaging any particular protected characteristic.

It is worth asking for one, and maybe find out if the company does them generally for other policy changes so if they haven't for this case, you can ask why they are not following normal procedure.

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