Muslim women and trans policies in the workplace

Sending you lots of support, please update the thread with any developments. Good luck

I think the point on the Muslim of council of Britain is that teaming up with them won't necessarily help OP as employers are apparently taking a lead from government and not engaging with them on workplace issues (according to the PP and links), so she would be better off seeking the help of other organisations.

If each cubicle is effectively a cloakroom

• of the kind that small restaurants have one of -

OP I’m interested in whether as a Muslim woman you would feel able to use unisex toilets that were fully enclosed, single user with sink inside? The office block my firm is moving to only has these toilets and I’m dreading it, and I don’t really think the building designers thought of Muslim women at all (or indeed any women and most men, who want single sex toilets).

Our current office has male, female and one “gender neutral” which apparently used to be the men’s and stinks of piss 🤮 I have never been in!

Or to find that they can no longer go the loo at work - and will be making themselves extremely vulnerable if they dare to share this massive problem and workplace rights/human rights breach.

Yes, it needs court cases. It has to be brought out in the open and tested in law. Are we now living in a society where it is ok to breach women's rights and exclude them from equal access if they cannot use mixed sex facilities? Does gender identity trump and cancel out all other protected characteristics when there is a conflict? Are third ways that meet all needs not legally acceptable?

I think we really need an actual court action on this. UK law is made from precedent.
We just cannot let things for women be trampled all over for an extreme minority who can be better served for their own needs completely separately.

No woman should be going back to work after lockdown to be confronted with disgusting unisex toilets.

I think this has got to get to a court case to establish OP's rights, your rights and all of our rights to single sex spaces.

Anne Sinnotts campaign to force the EHRC to actually tell a bazillion organisations that they provided with false advice on this exact issue could do with some major gardening input.

I'm sure so many organisations would welcome the correct advice that puts right the obvious wrongs that they are seeing in their daily business.

They know that they are upsetting women and putting them at risk but they feel that, due to the false advice received from official organisations (EHRC, GEO, many captured lawyers etc) they are at risk of action if they exclude the people who are determined to access every female only activity.

I'm sorry to act the thread police, but can we agree the point's been made about the controversies of the MCB, and get back to supporting the OP on the issue at hand?

The point is not to 'team up' with Holocaust deniers and those who thnk that women and girls shouldn't have any rights at all. Is it?

I'll team up with women of all kinds impacted by this assault on sex based rights.

That's kind of the point.

I couldn't really follow your very convoluted language, but the point I was making is that no matter how much we might want to fight for women's rights and the importance of sex, the answer is not to team up with people who deny the Holocaust, are openly homophobic, and do not believe that girls have the right to an education.

Much as I wouldn't 'get into bed' with Christian fundamentalists who want to ban abortion and contraception, even if they might agree with my views when it comes to views on transgenderism.

Being 'problematic' on some issues does not negate their validity on all issues either.

This is a tolerance to all argument, regardless of whether or not you like them, agree with them (and agree with all of them on everything), and without a hierarchy of importance. There are no reasons that negate other people's equality sufficiently that they should be excluded and subordinated to other people's interests. Because all people matter and some people are not more equal than others.

@WeRoarSometimes OP I have a Muslim colleague (we're a multi-agency service ans she sits in local government.) She contacted the Muslim Council for support last autumn about toilets and washing facilities. They sounded really supportive at the time.
I asked her this morning if she could signpost where to go within the organisation for help. She said the Muslim Council is supportive and engages well with Muslims facing workplaces issues, but her employer reported her they don't engage with the Muslim Council in line with central government. It sounded nuts so I googled it this afternoon

I mean it's not 'nuts' at all. The MCB are HUGELY problematic in their attitude to boys and girls, to Jews, Holocaust denial, to education, equal rights.

There are other Muslim organisations that don't have these attitudes or associations.

Just because someone is 'on side' with regard to something like sex-separated facilities, doesn't meant that they're not problematic in other ways.

"MCB guidance for schools says that parents of Muslim children should be allowed to withdraw their children from school activities involving mixed swimming, dance, sex and relationship education, music, drama, and figurative drawing on religious grounds."

"The MCB opposed the repeal of Section 28 on the grounds that presenting "homosexual practice as equivalent to marriage or in a morally neutral way is deeply offensive to Muslims" and that a repeal "undermines the institution of the family and will damage the fabric of our society"

see also
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/i-am-shamed-by-muslim-attitudes-to-the-holocaust-rl35sqq2lnp

Re Swimming :
One of my local pools when its open has a monthly nudist swim session.
Anybody can turn up, but they have to swim naked.
The rest of the month, everybody has to wear a swimming costume.
Those who choose to sometimes swim naked regularly swim clothed.
Personal choice does NOT give you the right to trample on the personal choice of others.

Trans rights may be human rights
but they are NOT greater than human rights

Likewise with the OP's situation - I hope you get some good legal advice. It seems to me like sex discrimination as well as religious discrimination. Good luck!

On basic inclusion grounds its utterly wrong. Including males excludes some females. There will be or could be other provisions for transwomen to swim: LGBT specific sessions, mixed sex sessions: their first choice may have been that they wanted the women's only swim. However all resources cannot be removed from some women for transwomen to be able to have their preferred choice of all the resources available to them.

When self identified women are unable to understand or care about the intersectional needs and challenges experienced by women, it becomes simply a case of the more powerful group with the louder voices dominating and taking the resources wanted without regard for the cost to others. It is sex based thinking in a clear hierarchy.

Hence why women need sex based rights to enforce boundaries and protections that are not respected voluntarily by all. And to maintain their rights against those who believe that women are lesser beings, who should rightfully have less and be secondary to the needs of their betters. And whose protected characteristics are to be considered and respected only when gender identity is not involved.

I don't remember where the EqA2010 says that.

We need test cases, as publicised as possible. Daily Mail sad faces.

It would be good if someone could sue the council over the loss of the 1 hour women only swimming, on the grounds of faith discrimination. It means that some women and girls will simply never be able to swim. On safety grounds again it's utterly wrong (they may really need to be able to swim one day).

@stumbledin
You're right, I should have skimmed the responses first, sorry.

I did point this out about the Muslim Council up thread and was surprised that others then mentioned it.

That's why I suggested Muslim Women's Network who work with the Government.

Dont want to sound grouchy but on a help thread where someon is asking for help it cant be that helpful to have the same things said over again.

It doesn't take that long to skim read through a thread.

ie better to add a single line with an unyet unmentioned contact.

Otherwise as OP said its a bit overwhelming.

I know I bang on about this (a lot) but we had a lovely women-only swimming group just one fucking hour a week with all sorts of women and women of various faiths. I am severely disabled and loved this group. Of course, the men dressing as women were allowed to join it and now two men swim in the women-only group alone.

Atheist here who UTTERLY supports you OP.

That's shocking. Do they think that talking to Muslim representatives will annoy their racist supporters?