Keir Starmer on Sophy Ridge

The denialism around biology, male-pattern violence and safeguarding is a massive red flag and makes me question their ability to develop good policy on anything.
This. Obviously this issue is a big one for me, but it's not just their stance on this issue, it's the their complete lack of judgement, twisting of rhetoric, the refusal to let go of dogma even when it takes them to ridiculous conclusions (eg Alex sobel, Lisa Nandy) It makes me think they are not capable of creating and following through decent policy on any issue, not just this one.

absolutely.
And the thing is: yes, people can be strong/right in one area - and completely weak/foolish in another - but not recognising that or thinking you are an absolute know-it-all in everything is pitiful. Some of the Labour party have just delegated their thinking on this and swallowed the TRA's line and that does suggest, worryingly, that they aren't thinkers.

Can I just say thanks for answering my questions and not jumping on me 😊
Some really interesting perspectives for me to consider. Thanks

I think the 85% statistic is that 85% of people identifying as TW have no surgery. Within the remaining 15% will be people have plastic surgery to create breasts and get facial feminisation and still retain their penises.

The denialism around biology, male-pattern violence and safeguarding is a massive red flag and makes me question their ability to develop good policy on anything.

This. Obviously this issue is a big one for me, but it's not just their stance on this issue, it's the their complete lack of judgement, twisting of rhetoric, the refusal to let go of dogma even when it takes them to ridiculous conclusions (eg Alex sobel, Lisa Nandy) It makes me think they are not capable of creating and following through decent policy on any issue, not just this one.

It's like when Owen Jones puts across ridiculous arguments like 'well, why have no transwomen ever qualified for the Olympics then, eh, eh, tell me that?' as if it's some sort of mic drop question (whilst of course having his comments turned off). It just kind of discredits everything else he says because I think if he is that hard of thinking on that question then he is applying the same brain to other things.

Is there a lot of evidence of trans women seeking refuge at women's DV hostels and then committing DV against the women there?

This is some evidence yeah, see court cases in Canada.

But that's not the point, really, is it? I think you need to ask yourself why you think women should no longer be allowed to have single sex spaces: prisons, refuges, sports, changing rooms away from male bodies? Are women not entitled to the safety, privacy, dignity and fairness that those spaces provide?
And why would anyone be against third spaces?

85% of people identifying as TW retain their penis

Wow - I did not know this.

I’m a floating voter - fairly middle of the road I’d say - and I will only be voting for a party which understand that there are two sexes , and can define woman. That was Jo Swinson’s downfall wasn’t it when she couldn’t define what a woman was? Also recently I watched back a YouTube clip of Lisa Nandy being grilled by Piers Morgan on whether she thought it would be fair for Usain Bolt or Floyd Merryweather to self id as women and compete against women. She refused to answer the question and kept dancing around the question - Piers kept on and on for a yes or no answer , but to no avail.
When canvassers call round that’s my main question now to them.

Limp dicked arsehole. Another MRA.

Local authorities have to ensure that there is support for all victims of abuse regardless of gender but the majority of services are single sex and people are sorted into the right ones. No one will be prevented from getting support.
In all women support groups we talk about things such as our experiences of rape. Many would choose not to access this support if it was not guaranteed to be single sex. This is not because we are at risk of being harmed but because we would not feel comfortable discussing this in a mixed sex group. The harm that would happen is that women would not access support.

I agree that focusing on the need for single sex refuges and prisons really focuses the minds.

If I am understanding PPs correctly (hope so) there are males self identifying as females who have no dysmorphia and no genuine trans feelings/plans but just want to infiltrate women's spaces for their own ends.

Its impossible to tell the difference between a genuine transwomen and a man who is lying for whatever reason.

Then there are cases like this. A clearly unwell individual, who seems to target women.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9279069/Transgender-beautician-33-jailed-nine-months-barging-gran-ground-London-Bridge.html

Tistheseason we have safeguarding for a reason, and no single group should be a sacred caste. We don’t exempt certain people from having DBS checks for a new job just because we know someone lovely just like them, and we don’t - or shouldn’t - open the doors to single sex spaces, where women are entitled to privacy, dignity and safety, to people with penises just because we know some other people with penises who wouldn’t hurt a fly. (85% of people identifying as TW retain their penis, btw.)

Men have historically gone to far greater lengths to access victims than simply claiming to be a woman, which is all it takes given we have self-ID in practice if not in law. And it’s not just about the possibility of attacks, it’s about having the security of knowing you’re not likely to come face to face with a man in a space that should be reserved for women. Otherwise you’re also at risk of traumatising sexual assault and DA survivors, many of whom suffer PTSD and are triggered by encountering strange men unexpectedly in places you would not expect them to be, and excluding women of certain faiths.

I have sympathy for any TW who feels unsafe in the Gents (although there is very little evidence of TW being attacked in the men’s toilets) but the answer is third spaces or for them to work on educating men, not to colonise women’s spaces and in doing so, render them mixed sex.

His arse must be hurting from all that fence sitting.

I experienced DV from a man and, yes,he was much stronger and I did not fight back physically. through fear of what he was capable of.

I experienced significant mental abuse and bullying from a woman.

I fought back against both through police/work.

Both pretty damned awful experiences but I have encountered more of the latter in my life, sadly.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I cannot really comment on negative experiences with trans women as I have only had positive experiences.

If I am understanding PPs correctly (hope so) there are males self identifying as females who have no dysmorphia and no genuine trans feelings/plans but just want to infiltrate women's spaces for their own ends. That does not sound safe at all for women and genuine trans women. Or have I misunderstood the issue?
I'm looking to understand and grow knowledge, not to disagree with anyone.

1. Women have a right to have places where people with Penises are not present-regardless of how those people identify.
2. If the doors are opened to ‘real’ transwomen, how would you stop abusive men getting through the door by claiming to be trans? Serious question-how would you know?

I understand enough of how the world of politics works to recognise why Starmer is picking splinters out of his arse from the fence but fuck me, I am absolutely sick of women’s concerns and rights being such a dirty word that we’re expected to be grateful for a few crumbs. We count, we matter, we vote, and the absolute least we deserve is someone willing to stand up and address the fucking appalling, deep-seated misogyny in politics in general and the Labour Party in particular that we’ve lived under for far too long.

Even when I was having a bad time with a very unpleasant female senior manager I didn’t ever feel physically vulnerable where I’ve used the ladies toilets to get away from aggressive male colleagues as I also felt physically vulnerable whilst they used their size to intimidate me

Btw the NEC statement on all-women shortlists still hasn't been changed as promised.

"I would also say there are some women I would not want to share space with as they are aggressive, over bearing and bullying irrespective of their natural born status."

Difference is, if a female physically attacked me, I would have a chance of defending myself or getting away. If a male attacks me, even if he's ballpark my height (short), I would not stand a chance.

And there are lots of men I would trust 100%. I still don't think they should be allowed in female spaces.

@merrymouse

That is really helpful. I've sometimes not found responses to be as constructive in response to understanding what the issue is - but this is good, thanks

God help me I voted for Labour under Corbyn one election and spoilt my ballot paper on the next. I’ll be voting Tory next election at this rate

Please Starmer sit down and listen properly to the issues and stop with the ‘both sides’ rhetoric

The issue is also not whether trans women should be allowed into mixed sex hostels or whether mixed sex hostels should exist (no law to prevent this), but whether the law should be changed to specifically prevent individual hostels from excluding all people whose sex is male. They will want to do this not only to exclude dangerous men, but to provide a space for women who, having suffered abuse, do not want to share space with men.

A third issue is that Stonewall are currently misrepresenting the law to persuade service providers that it is already illegal to have a blanket exclusion based on sex.

@Thelnebriati - thank you.
I have been the victim of DV but I don't have negative feelings towards sharing space with a trans woman who was also experiencing DV. But, I understand we all feel differently. My experience of trans women has been v. postive but I appreciate not everyone is in the same boat.

I would also say there are some women I would not want to share space with as they are aggressive, over bearing and bullying irrespective of their natural born status.

bloody hell, why is it so difficult to stand up for womens legal rights? Sadly I shall be voting Tory until the Labour Party can sort itself out. This singular issue is enough for me to cast my vote, womens rights must be protected.

Eighty seats weren't enough were they? No clue. Absolutely no clue what the public think. I've had it with them frankly. Voted for him in the leadership in the faint hope he'd be sensible. They are all cracked, all of them.