The TWAW debate for beginners

I consider myself to be a woman. I respect trans women's decisions to think of themselves as women. I don't think of trans women as men, I don't think of them as women; I think of them as trans women.

It's not really about considering oneself. You are a woman, with xx chromosomes, and probably most if not all of the usual biological features that women have.

Transwomen are male, by definition. One can't be 'trans' unless one is 'transing' from the one to the other - and there are only two sexes. The theory is that transwomen are males 'transitioning' into women.

One thing I've certainly learned from this issue is how to assess an argument on its own merits, without diverting down the "I saw Goody Proctor with the devil" route.

Gosh, yes. It's been so educative, in that respect.

I am now utterly cynical. I take second hand information from no-one, I always, always look for the source, for the actual quote, for the evidence.

Don't take anyone's word for things, OP. Women on this board will generally endeavour to link to factual evidence and their sources as much as possible, but you should always check it for yourself.

To be informed on these issues, there's no shortcut. You have to do a bit of work digging and checking for yourself. I don't say this to be dismissive or 'educate yourself', I just think that in order to arrive at a logical position it's essential to satisfy yourself that you're not just taking the word of some random on the internet.

People can confidently throw out assertions that sound convincing. Check, double check, look for corroboration.

This has been really eye-opening, not just for this topic, but for all topics. If somewhat depressing.

I started a thread a few years ago now asking what was the difference between sex and gender. I was just so bloody confused. Anyway the great FWR help me Un pick it and I found this website really useful covering the basics

sexandgenderintro.com/

Sugarintheplum - if you can be bothered to keep an eye on who posts what on MN then a good way to shortlist worthwhile resources is to notice who smears them with allegations of being in the pockets of

a) evangelical Christians
and/or
b) the far right”/ the “alt right”/ “neo-nazis” etc.

Often these will be people who are attacked online and physically in real life for advocating for women’s rights and safeguarding children.

”The Transgender Jedi Mind Trick”
by Jenn Smith

Check out that video by Jenn Smith to get an idea of what pisses some people right off (that and advocating for the protection of vulnerable children in care, autistic and indigenous children, of course).

One thing I've certainly learned from this issue is how to assess an argument on its own merits, without diverting down the "I saw Goody Proctor with the devil" route.
A tendency I now realise I've had in the past, having been active in left wing politics all my adult life.
Live and learn, eh? Well, some of us learn I guess.

Welcome Sugarintheplum! Thanks for starting a thread and sharing your thoughts.

There's a lot of information and topics of discussion under this subject, so I always advise newcomers to take their time to read and absorb all the issues and arguments from various perspectives.
Don't feel like you have to rush to solidify all your thoughts or positions ASAP.

It took me a good few months to read the debates and intelligent discussions here before I started to feel like I was getting a handle on the broad areas of concerns. So start reading through some of the threads here. The articles and videos posted above are also a good starting point. Comment or ask questions on other threads. Most people are happy to answer questions if someone isn't coming across as trolling.

Are there any specific areas or points that concern you the most at the moment?

Everyone who questions the tennants of Gender Orthodoxy is linked to white supremacists, facism or the Alt-right at some point.

Jenn Smith describes himself (JS’s preferred pronouns are masculine) as:

Jenn Smith is embedded within the evangelical movement and has been linked to white supremicist rgoups. Possibly not the best example.

[quote CranberriesChoccyAgain]Keep in mind, OP, when searching the web for information that google is quite biased (captured) and you might fare better with alternative search engines. You'll find lots of helpful information from posters here of course.

I always like this video, it helps demonstrate the cognitive dissonance with much of the gender identity ideology.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=xfO1veFs6Ho[/quote]
Oh wow. I hadn't seen that before!

Keep in mind, OP, when searching the web for information that google is quite biased (captured) and you might fare better with alternative search engines. You'll find lots of helpful information from posters here of course.

I always like this video, it helps demonstrate the cognitive dissonance with much of the gender identity ideology.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=xfO1veFs6Ho

And this is the first part of a four-part documentary series called Dysphoric. It too is well worth watching:

This is a long video called TERF Wars but it's entertaining and covers everything. Give it a try for the first 20 minutes at least:

Not all males who “transition” consider themselves to be TW. Some, like Miranda Yardley, prefer to describe themselves with terminology that is banned by Mumsnet because of objections by other trans people.

By banning those terms MN prioritises the views and feelings of some transgender people over other transgender people, including some transsexuals.

Articles by Miranda Yardley categorised as ”How transgenderism works” :

mirandayardley.com/en/category/how-transgenderism-works/

Jenn Smith describes himself (JS’s preferred pronouns are masculine) as:

“Jenn Smith is a 55 year-old transgender identified male. Born in Oliver, British Columbia. He has degrees in history and political science, and has extensive life experience being transgender and interacting with the transgender community. He first began expressing as the opposite gender as a foster child when he was about 9 years old and believes these impulses came out of his childhood traumas and a sense of rejection. His understanding of his transgender identity is complex, but he has moved in out of transgender expression over the course of his life. He has been writing and speaking on the dangers that transgender ideology poses to women and children, and more recently has focused his efforts on exposing SOGI 123 in schools and its assault on parental rights, freedom of religion, and freedom of conscience. He has been pushing for provincial and national inquiries into the mass medical transitioning of foster children and children with psychological and emotional problems. He has done countless public talks all across BC, staged rallies and protests, and presented to School Boards. The title of his most recent public talk is “Synanon, The Brainwashing “Game”, and Assault on Our Most Vulnerable Children: How transgender Ideology and Big Pharma is Assaulting Reality and Victimizing Our Most Vulnerable Children.”

transanityca.wordpress.com/about/

(I have quoted the whole About page for the benefit of Mumsnet Moderators, as it makes clear that Jenn’s position is thoughtful, deliberate and principled - not faddish or due to ignorance of the current orthodoxy.)

Why not whether!

It might be worth thinking about whether you see trans women as neither women nor men.

They are male by definition.

The idea that a man who opts out is not-a-man is based in toxic masculinity.

This thread has a lot of useful posts and links

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me?reverse=1

This is a good place to start
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me