The TWAW debate for beginners

I thought that was what I was trying to say!

Maybe I've not phrased it clearly enough ...

Agree that the clothes don't maketh the woman, of course, just I mean that acting outwith gender norms isn't a problem ...

Hmm ... yes, you're right, because you can't say 'TWAW' without admitting that gender = sex. It only works from within a rigidly policed gender binary.

I suppose the only thing that makes sense is 'we are all non-binary when it comes to gender'.

Okay.

Thank you!

But yes, sure, shop from whatever section of the shop you feel happy in, and wear whatever you want.

Just don't claim anyone's fashion preferences is what makes them a man or woman. That's the problem.

For example: Gender: Transwomen who want to wear dresses and high heels are women: totally fine, I'm sure not many people really give two hoots and certainly not the feminists on here. Shop from whatever section of the shop you feel happy in.

Going to disagree. Sure, at level 1, you can say "fine, whatever, you do you". That's basically where libfem thought stops, it seems. Total inability to see or acknowledge systemic problems or consequences (unless officially approved by dogma, in which case you can even see them where they don't exist).

But the problem is that if you accept that belief system, the corollary is - "if that's what makes someone a woman, and someone doesn't like those, are they not a (proper) woman?". It's reinforcing up all the cultural norms and baggage that proper feminists oppose, and worse than that, inducing young girls to call themselves non-binary - or worse.

"Not liking dresses and high heels" becomes a symptom of "gender dysphoria" for women.

'TWAW' works perfectly well and is fine if we are using 'gender' (social and cultural stereotypes).

'TWAW' is factually untrue and potentially damaging if we are using 'sex' (biological sex).

For example: Gender: Transwomen who want to wear dresses and high heels are women: totally fine, I'm sure not many people really give two hoots and certainly not the feminists on here. Shop from whatever section of the shop you feel happy in.

Sex: When it comes to legal documents and policy: Transwomen are women - well, no. Because that means we can't protect women's sex based rights and our rights to single sex provision as outlined in the Equality Act.

The phrase 'TWAW' is most commonly accepted as referring to gender, and that is fairly uncontroversial. In recent years the context and referral has been slid into meaning 'sex'. That is a whole different kettle of fish.

The problems arise because people are not clear on the difference between the two words.

Gender ideology - whoever is doing the dishes is a woman

I've seen that, but I don't think it quite works.

How about

"Gender ideology - whoever says they like doing dishes is a woman"

I think that better covers

a) the non-binary women who say they're not women because they don't like doing dishes - but they'll still end up doing them

b) the men who say they're extremely womany and like doing womany things, but never actually perform the "women's role" except when it comes to "fun" stuff like sleepovers, makeup and spinny dresses.

Sexism - the women should do the dishes.

Feminism - men or woman can do the dishes.
Gender ideology - whoever is doing the dishes is a woman

[quote AdHominemNonSequitur]@FemaleAndLearning
"I would like to have a good answer as to why transgenderism is an ideology, maybe like a religion. A religion I don't won't to prescribe to so I can say I'm a gender aethiest (term I've seen on here and like as it is how I feel). But how do I articulate that? To me saying TWAW is like a belief system, but why to so many people believe and follow it?"

That is so on point. I agree totally. I think you already articulated it quite well. An ideology is a secular belief system. The difficulty is, trying to honestly expand on that involves using certain words and descriptions that can get posts deleted and threads removed.

If an ideology or religion has key tenets that can not be openly questioned without censure, it's a fairly good bet that it is one.

There are two c**t words Mumsnet are not keen and will delete,but the word ideology seem to be acceptible.

As to why so many people follow it.

Postmodern theory is not marxism but it evolved from it and shares lots of features (cultural marxism rather than economic marxism).
Yri bezmenov on the 4 stages of ideological subversion sheds some light on the well worn playbook that is being re-enacted with a new spin for the internet age. It is overt, open, you can see it.
The demoralisation phase he describes has been happening in universities , 15 - 20 years of generational brainwashing in the social sciences and university. Remember we used to laugh that so many mediocre students would choose the social sciences as a way of getting a degree...well. That generation is now coming into positions of power in institutions, civil service, politics, media and healthcare, education and are destabilising the general public via media. Useful idiots he called them, and they can't be deprogrammed, their perception of reality is permenantly changed. Fence sitter might be persuadable with reality.[/quote]
Thank you, very helpful. I think I will refresh myself on the talk guidelines to make sure I use the allowed language as it would be easy to slip up.

They know

The argument that I find quite upsetting tbh is that woman has always referred to a social role and nothing more.

The audacity to make such a claim.
The implication that it was a role all the time and not a word for us as a sex.
The implication that as it's just a role it could be played by anyone- so we could have just not played that role if we didn't fit.

The arguments they make I think many of them have no idea how they're handwaving away thousands of years of female oppression, and all the things still going on in the world.

No. TWAW is reductive.
Does it mean:
Trans women are socially women?
Trans women are literally women?
Trans women are women but with some male advantages?
Trans women are female?

At this point we are not even talking the same language. The very definition of men, women, gender, even the understanding of sex is being warped and disputed.

Transwomen are Women

The best place to start is deciding whether you believe it

@Mumofgirlswholiketoplaywithmud

That was really helpful. Thanks for sharing

Not sure what happened with my emphasis there. Here is the transcript for more info: committees.parliament.uk/event/2998/formal-meeting-oral-evidence-session/

I like the answers of the expert witnesses Dr Stock, Prof Freedman and Prof Sullivan gave at the women's equality select committee when asked by MP Gibson:

"Could you each confirm for me your view as to whether a trans woman is a woman and whether a trans man is a man, please?

Professor Freedman: I will go down the law route because that is my expertise, and I think you would rather have my expertise than my personal opinion. In law, it says that a man is someone who is born male with biology in terms of chromosomes, gonads and genitalia, and a woman is someone who is born female with the same biological factors. Now, there is the legal fiction where a trans woman or a trans man may gain a gender recognition certificate that changes their legal sex but does not change their actual sex. Currently, in law, a trans woman is a trans woman unless she holds a GRC, in which case she is male, she is a trans woman, but, legally, she would be recognised as a woman for many but not all purposes.

That sounds complicated because the law is currently in a bit of a mess and that is why we need to change and streamline it. My opinion, therefore, changes depending on whether someone holds a GRC, but I stick in line with what the law currently says, which is that your sex is determined by biology.

Dr Stock: I think that we have two sexes, males and females. We have the human versions, the human males and females, and we have the adult and younger versions, adult and younger human males and females. We need a category to describe the adult human male and the adult human female because it aids communication about a vast range of things, given that we are a sexually dimorphic species that reproduces via heterosexuality. In other words, woman is adult human female and man is adult human male. That is the best understanding of those categories.

Professor Sullivan: I have been very clear. There is a distinction between sex and gender identity. Both of them are quite properly protected characteristics and we need to see them as distinct. The slogan “trans women are women” has been really unhelpful. Grown‑up, mature adults do not talk in slogans. We need to think about the fact that there might be contexts where we want to treat trans women as though they were women and trans men as though they were men. In other contexts, that may not be appropriate. For example, if we think about sporting categories, changing rooms or data collection, all sorts of different issues may come up and we need to have a sensible conversation about those different contexts"

I've seen and read a hell of a lot over the last few years - it's hard to recall that "well, this is a rabbit hole, isn't it?" feeling I had when first going down the sidebar of links on r/GenderCritical.

I've seen some good suggestions above - that "TERF Wars" is good.

I'm going to resist the temptation to give a huge list of links - that's just going to make it feel even more daunting.

But here some of my favourites that are suitable for beginners (who probably aren't yet ready for the 3-hour JCJ interviews or deep dives into gender ideology by RRC):

Jane Clare Jones' late-2018 Annals of the Terf Wars - how we got here in satirical screenplay form. An easy read.

Magdalen Berns channel. Short snappy, blisteringly honest videos. Any of the "most popular" ones from that link. Personal favourites are , and .

Channel 4: ‘Children have been very seriously damaged’ by NHS gender clinic, says former Tavistock staff governor - 10 minute interview. David Bell's testimony is so powerful even Cathy Newman seems to finally grasp it. Her face says it all.

@FemaleAndLearning
"I would like to have a good answer as to why transgenderism is an ideology, maybe like a religion. A religion I don't won't to prescribe to so I can say I'm a gender aethiest (term I've seen on here and like as it is how I feel). But how do I articulate that? To me saying TWAW is like a belief system, but why to so many people believe and follow it?"

That is so on point. I agree totally. I think you already articulated it quite well. An ideology is a secular belief system. The difficulty is, trying to honestly expand on that involves using certain words and descriptions that can get posts deleted and threads removed.

If an ideology or religion has key tenets that can not be openly questioned without censure, it's a fairly good bet that it is one.

There are two c**t words Mumsnet are not keen and will delete,but the word ideology seem to be acceptible.

As to why so many people follow it.

Postmodern theory is not marxism but it evolved from it and shares lots of features (cultural marxism rather than economic marxism).
Yri bezmenov on the 4 stages of ideological subversion sheds some light on the well worn playbook that is being re-enacted with a new spin for the internet age. It is overt, open, you can see it.
The demoralisation phase he describes has been happening in universities , 15 - 20 years of generational brainwashing in the social sciences and university. Remember we used to laugh that so many mediocre students would choose the social sciences as a way of getting a degree...well. That generation is now coming into positions of power in institutions, civil service, politics, media and healthcare, education and are destabilising the general public via media. Useful idiots he called them, and they can't be deprogrammed, their perception of reality is permenantly changed. Fence sitter might be persuadable with reality.

Thanks for asking this op. I’m at the same place. Commented on a few threads here but mainly just reading threads and slowly gaining a different perspective.

I wonder what explanation your friends give for accusing you of being transphobic?

Do you feel like you are transphobic?

As pps say, question the mantras

Q. Can human beings change sex?
A.No

Q. Are trans people the most marginalised and maligned people in society?

A. There is major trans policy influence over every public service organisation- the BBC, police, NHS, local authorities, most government depts, schools, CPS, many sporting regulatory bodies, many children’s charities, Girl Guides, EHRC, Scottish government, Welsh government, many newspapers and media outlets, 850 uk major employers etc.
Most of the policies put in place have ignored basic procedure such as proper Equalities Impact Assessments to consider how others, like women, are affected by fundamental policy changes.

Any request to even discuss the impacts of such policy changes are shut down and peoples jobs are threatened. Basic safeguarding procedures are being ignored. Draw your own conclusions as to the power currently held by people advocating for trans people.

Q. Given that there is an obvious conflict in rights, should we sit down and discuss it openly?
A. Women - yes please. Gender activists - #nodebate.

Q. How do many transsexuals (their explicit choice of terminology) feel about the situation?
A. Many high (and low) profile transsexuals are very clear that they were born male (hence their transition journey - a huge life challenge), they don’t need access to women’s single sex facilities because they don’t feel in danger and are actually campaigning on the side of women’s rights.

We have no evidence that transwomen are in any more danger in the men’s facility than any other vulnerable male group (like teen boys etc) and thankfully zero trans people were murdered in the uk since 2018 (compared with approx 200 women every single year)

This is all evidenced and rechecked - but do check for yourself.

The difference between sex and gender.

Others are SJW types who think they're fighting for the underdog, either oblivious to or deliberately ignoring the massive funding behind the movement.

It gets said often but bears repeating: GC feminists don't hate trans people. The problem is with the aggressive and violent advocates, TRAs, many of whom are likely not trans. They've joined the movement because it seems an acceptable way to silence and harrass women.

What I find odd are the contradictions: on the one hand all these genders want to have their own separate identity flag (not just the pink and blue one, but numerous others too), but simultaneously also want to co-opt 'woman'. Why don't they think being trans is fine as an identity as it is?

I would like to have a good answer as to why transgenderism is an ideology, maybe like a religion. A religion I don't won't to prescribe to so I can say I'm a gender aethiest (term I've seen on here and like as it is how I feel). But how do I articulate that? To me saying TWAW is like a belief system, but why to so many people believe and follow it?