Anti-FGM campaigner Hibo Wardere comes under attack

So many powerful posts but this nails the offensive racist views displayed at times on this thread:

Sex is important. It should not be made invisible by gender. Because when you try to, you get fuckers on twitter telling a black woman she's transphobic by talking about things in sex terms

We need to talk about how FGM only affects females. It is exclusively a woman's issue. More than that its an issue that pretty much doesn't affect white women. Instead this is being used to say that males are a sub-group of women just like black women which is deeply racist and offensive, on top of the issues of trying to bully women into accepting gender over sex

Thank you RTB.

The disruption intention is to deny that girl and woman are descriptors for those humans (child or adult) who are the female sex.
I wonder if those so invested in this denial also spend days every Autumn on forums elsewhere discussing the Movember campaigns for men's health.

"Trans women are women, but this issue cannot affect them and this distracts from and confuses the message."

So close, so close yet so far.
This issue cannot affect them, because a transwoman is not a human female. If a transwoman really was a woman, then there would be no need for transgender rights.

I think to me it more like the rich, well dressed businessman is refusing to give money because the homeless person isn't wearing vegan shoes.

The homeless person hasn't made a mistake. They just doesn't share the businessman's privileged beliefs.

Yes, that is the direct equivalent here.

Trans women are women, but this issue cannot affect them and this distracts from and confuses the message.

Transwomen are women, except on issues which only affect women.

Right, got it

Must be nice to be able to opt into womanhood like that.

Don't

I guess that businessman won't be giving me money either 😞

The homeless person hasn't made a mistake. They just doesn't share the businessman's privileged beliefs.

“Trans women are women, but this issue cannot affect them”

^Because they aren’t biologically female.
Because they are TRANSwomen.^

How can TWAW be so vehemently asserted on the one hand, and then the fundamental difference between “females” and “transwomen” be so bluntly stated? How can you believe the first whilst acknowledging the second?

Sex is important. It should not be made invisible by gender. Because when you try to, you get fuckers on twitter telling a black woman she's transphobic by talking about things in sex terms.

We need to identify times when trans people are different to the sex they claim they are simply so these issues have proper visibility over what the issues relating to biology and social conditioning due to sex (not gender) are.

If you can't see sex, you can't see sexism.

By all means talk about gender as a completely separate thing. Distinguish it. Own the 'trans' part of experience without removing women's ability (or gay men's for that matter) need to express their own individual experience which is not the 'default'.

Personally I think gender is extremely sexist in its own right but I would have far less issues with the situation if sex was very clearly separate and we weren't seeing attempts to remove sex as a protected characteristic in the Equality Act by major lobbying groups who claim to be supporting minorities and vulnerable groups (and are completely failing in their remit in doing so).

The deliberate conflation of sex and gender is the biggest problem with hardline trans activism. If you are born male you can never become female and vice versa. This kinda sucks for a lot of people - including those who aren't trans because sometimes it sucks to have certain biology because that affects your life experience and how others treat you.

Telling people to ignore reality and to use 'more inclusive language' is just abusive. This includes telling women that males are actually female. They are not. We need to address the safeguarding and abuse issues that affect women.

The whole thing is about balance and the need to actually be inclusive - as in recognise the issues women face due to their biology - as being separate and unique and that if you are trans you have different battles to fight. They may be valid battles but they are different and often at odds with those of women.

Language use is hugely important to the fight for recognising abuse and discrimination of women.

Transwomen are women is a thought terminating cliche which is used to silence women into submission. Transmen are men is a thought terminating cliche which stops us from asking questions about the sudden rise of a new cohort declaring they do not wish to be female anymore. We need to ask these questions for the safety and well-being of all. We need to define women on biological terms alone for scientific and legal reasons.

We need to talk about how FGM only affects females. It is exclusively a woman's issue. More than that its an issue that pretty much doesn't affect white women. Instead this is being used to say that males are a sub-group of women just like black women which is deeply racist and offensive, on top of the issues of trying to bully women into accepting gender over sex.

And the most galling thing of all is deep down we know that even the most ardent trans activism know this and know there is a difference between gender and sex and have the honour of being allowed to make that distinction in little remarks like this when it suits. Women on the other hand are abused and slurred in a non neutral way of being 'gender critical feminists' as if they are shit on shoes. "Eeeewww gender critical".

The bottom line is that we get abuse for pointing out this utter sexism. We are told we are bigotted. This isn't ok. Its not ok when its identified by men and trans activists and get this, its still not ok when its deliberately hidden and ignored by men and trans activists.

FGM only affects women. Thats not ciswomen. Just women. The word is ours. It has meaning and importance because sexism.

I am more than happy to use any neutral term acceptable to posters here which describes the position of feminists who do not think trans men are men

Also think that the onus is on you, as a minority view, not on everyone else to be labelled, anyway. Most people, the world over, know the difference between the sexes, and the myriad implications of being either male or female. Transgenderism really is a minority paradigm.

Even those who on the surface voice support, often secretly think or know differently.

I know that’s been answered repeatedly btw, I’m not expecting anyone to reanswer it. I just can’t wrap my head around the why, aside from trans people wanting their egos stroked again.

Men and trans people are not at risk of FGM. Why is this an issue?

@sceptcaltank I am using “gender critical feminist” or “ GC feminist” because it’s an accepted neutral term. The issue isn’t the label, it’s the views. I am more than happy to use any neutral term acceptable to posters here which describes the position of feminists who do not think trans men are men

I'm not sure that everyone here would even identify with the label 'feminist'. It is not a label I naturally attach to myself, for example; although I would say I am 'woman focused' on many issues. I do have fellow feeling for other females in many of life's circumstances. Females from all backgrounds; cultures; even species.

To be critical of repressive gender expectations which one feels do not naturally fit is not exclusive to any one particular political view point. I would perhaps just simply call it 'Gender Critical'.

For the thousandth, millionth time, the definition of woman is an adult human female. A transwoman is not an adult human female, therefore cannot fall under the definition of woman.

If there is another definition of 'woman' that covers what all women and transwomen exclusively have in common, go ahead DadJoke - please provide it.

Until then, I am working to the currently accepted definition of 'woman'. Perhaps it is 'exclusionary' but has the advantage of being based in material reality.

The faithful can never let the recusants and the apostates alone.

I’m being neutral when I call you a heretic.

You don't use the term neutrally. You use it as a value judgement. You slur people who you assign that label to as transphobic. You believe the word transphobic applies to anyone who doesn't assign the same definitions to words as you do or apply your preferred words when you want them applied

Excellent post sceptical

[quote DadJoke]@nicegerbil I’ve read the thread now, I think there were many unpleasant transphobic comments, but I agree with the gist of the criticism.

If I’d seen it at the time I would have commented. Trans women are women, but this issue cannot affect them and this distracts from and confuses the message.

Thanks for the kind words, BTW.[/quote]
“Trans women are women, but this issue cannot affect them”

Because they aren’t biologically female.
Because they are TRANSwomen.

How can TWAW be so vehemently asserted on the one hand, and then the fundamental difference between “females” and “transwomen” be so bluntly stated? How can you believe the first whilst acknowledging the second?

Trans women are women

Within your personal ideology. Many women, on this thread and in the wider world, do not agree, and would say the definition of women is not for male people to decide.

As an activist (sort of) for social justice issues that do not directly affect you, do you normally expect to stride in and tell oppressed groups that you don't belong to what they should be advocating for and how they should define themselves?

[quote DadJoke]@sceptcaltank I am using “gender critical feminist” or “ GC feminist” because it’s an accepted neutral term. The issue isn’t the label, it’s the views. I am more than happy to use any neutral term acceptable to posters here which describes the position of feminists who do not think trans men are men.[/quote]
You don't use the term neutrally. You use it as a value judgement. You slur people who you assign that label to as transphobic. You believe the word transphobic applies to anyone who doesn't assign the same definitions to words as you do or apply your preferred words when you want them applied.

You are now asking for another term or label to affix to people who "think" thoughts you dislike.

Why are you so insistent on labelling, and of assigning deviant thinking to those you want labelled?

Your motivation appears to be a need to categorise in bad or good groups?

So this is the thing DadJoke.

You agree in general with the criticism on this thread of the attack on the fgm activist.

So maybe you understand there was a reason to be pissed off, and it wasn't driven by bigotry?

And that things like that happen too often and a lot of women have just had it.

Tried to understand.
Tried to be kind.
Etc.

But this sort of thing keeps happening. And it's almost always women who get these attacks. And it's almost always because of something related to our biology. Rarely rarely men's.

And when you notice that you think. That doesn't make sense. Something else is going on here.

Even you on here. Do you go on sites for gay men and find a discussion about trans men and sex (I'm sure they must exist) and join in?

If you don't, please think why you are here telling us off when actually most people do not believe TMAM or TWAW and you can find this all over the net I'm sure.

'I am more than happy to use any neutral term acceptable to posters here which describes the position of feminists who do not think trans men are men.'

But most of the population of the world doesn't believe it. And most of the population of the world are not feminists.

Most men don't believe it. Left wing right wing religious athiest whatever.

Do you not know that?

Also, any thoughts on my post?

@nicegerbil I’ve read the thread now, I think there were many unpleasant transphobic comments, but I agree with the gist of the criticism.

If I’d seen it at the time I would have commented. Trans women are women, but this issue cannot affect them and this distracts from and confuses the message.

Thanks for the kind words, BTW.

I'm really not sure what you imagine you've achieved on this thread, Dadjoke. Your intervention is really quite something.

Almost all the signal boosting of the ill-advised transgender people who have commented to or about Wardere comes from GC feminists complaining about it.

Always happy to boost that kind of signal. Sunlight.