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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Anti-FGM campaigner Hibo Wardere comes under attack

510 replies

JustTurtlesAllTheWayDown · 19/02/2021 08:20

Again. I know Hibo has put out more than one video clarifying that her focus is on women and girls and on stopping FGM, but she did another one last night after being piled on and called a hater for not being 'inclusive' in her language.
mobile.twitter.com/HiboWardere/status/1362100744216866825
I am bloody angry about it this morning.
Hibo Wardere is a personal hero of mine for the amazing work she's done.
Attacking her for not focusing on other issues is the lowest of the low. The misogyny is rank.
(Also, if anyone hasn't got her book 'Cut' on their feminist book shelf, I really do recommend it. It's not an easy read but I found her journey incredibly inspiring).

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PotholeParadies · 23/02/2021 15:06

So to anyone who thinks they and Nora Imlau can be in solidarity with anything that calls itself a trans rights movement (plenty of trans people are entirely behind Hibo Wardere) and totally behind the work of FGM, have a look at that link?

Which would you centre in your work? Girls at risk of FGM in Wyoming, or would you ally with the people fighting against the bill?

PotholeParadies · 23/02/2021 14:52

Goodness.

Someone didn't like that. Under His Eye, alright.

Let me try that again.

I think a certain Christmassy person on MN is incredibly sharp and very astute.

And I would like to draw people's attention to this situation in Alabama, which might be why people on twitter keep engineering attacks on Hibo Wardere.

thepostmillennial.com/bill-to-ban-fgm-blocked-in-wyoming-by-radical-trans-activists

PotholeParadies · 23/02/2021 14:27

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Quotes a deleted post.

7Days · 23/02/2021 14:11

Yup. It's a way so see how invested you are. If you dont make it your business to keep up with the terminology just how committed are you really?

DaisiesandButtercups · 23/02/2021 14:05

@BuntingEllacott

Well that's because that's true.

I recall posting about this on FWR a couple of years ago, around the time there were a slew of articles and blog posts from trabsactivists and people were desperately trying to dig into the trans arguments to make sense of them.

The problem is there is fundamental disconnect in how language is being used. You and I use it to make meaning clear, to communicate. The current identity movement use it to signal who is in and who is outside of the group. Which is quite ironic for a movement all about inclusion, but so much is.

You read it all from a starting assumption that language is being used to clarify. But what you are actually reading is a number of language cues that indicate whether someone is a true believer, or maybe one of the sacred caste. The language shifts all the time because that's how they stay aware of the heretics, and how they constantly keep each other a little off-kilter, and thus easier to manipulate.

I could use a short word to describe this sort of phenomenon but I'd get deleted for it, because they really don't like it being pointed out clearly (obviously, given what I've just explained about their use of language).

But the dynamics are very clear once you understand this basic disconnect.

All of which is to say, don't expect to make rational sense of it. That's not what their arguments are for. Your reaction simply means you are outside the group. A fact which should be an immense comfort.

This
lucylucky1977 · 23/02/2021 14:04

As someone says on that thread “If someone is talking about female genital mutilation and your first thought is 'that's transphobic' then you're a sociopath.”

JustTurtlesAllTheWayDown · 23/02/2021 13:28

On the subject of the abuse Hibo was getting, can someone explain to me the moral difference in stance between "I would never criticise Hibo's language as she's an FGM survivor but I will publicly tell other people off for being transphobic if they defend her against people calling her transphobic!" and... criticising Hibo's language for being transphobic?

Nothing but semantics between the two. That's the problem with all this stuff. The moment you apply even the slightest critical analysis to it, it falls to pieces and to keep on defending it, to quote Lewis Carroll, you need to believe in six impossible things before breakfast.

OP posts:
BuntingEllacott · 23/02/2021 13:21

And yet, I still speak...Wink

PotholeParadies · 23/02/2021 13:14

Well, that's you disqualified from having a voice on women's rights then.

BuntingEllacott · 23/02/2021 13:01

Some of my best friends are Christian evangelicals. Frankly I think the world would be poorer without Tim Vine's jokes.

PotholeParadies · 23/02/2021 12:55

Reproach, not approach.

Anyway the Bible comes to mind. 12 Judges 5-6.

PotholeParadies · 23/02/2021 12:49

But what you are actually reading is a number of language cues that indicate whether someone is a true believer, or maybe one of the sacred caste. The language shifts all the time because that's how they stay aware of the heretics, and how they constantly keep each other a little off-kilter, and thus easier to manipulate.

I completely agree with this assessment, because I used to do it.BlushGrin

Careful affirmation of beliefs to place oneself beyond approach and curry favour, in case of future transgressions.

BuntingEllacott · 23/02/2021 12:42

Well that's because that's true.

I recall posting about this on FWR a couple of years ago, around the time there were a slew of articles and blog posts from trabsactivists and people were desperately trying to dig into the trans arguments to make sense of them.

The problem is there is fundamental disconnect in how language is being used. You and I use it to make meaning clear, to communicate. The current identity movement use it to signal who is in and who is outside of the group. Which is quite ironic for a movement all about inclusion, but so much is.

You read it all from a starting assumption that language is being used to clarify. But what you are actually reading is a number of language cues that indicate whether someone is a true believer, or maybe one of the sacred caste. The language shifts all the time because that's how they stay aware of the heretics, and how they constantly keep each other a little off-kilter, and thus easier to manipulate.

I could use a short word to describe this sort of phenomenon but I'd get deleted for it, because they really don't like it being pointed out clearly (obviously, given what I've just explained about their use of language).

But the dynamics are very clear once you understand this basic disconnect.

All of which is to say, don't expect to make rational sense of it. That's not what their arguments are for. Your reaction simply means you are outside the group. A fact which should be an immense comfort.

PotholeParadies · 23/02/2021 12:27

Nearly... Sorry! Blush

I keep trying to get in to the mindset and then I come up against my own way of thinking, as if I'd just run headfirst into a brick wall.

I keep muttering, "but it's the same thing. You're supporting people attacking her! You're just saying it behind her back!" while viciously plumping cushions.

BuntingEllacott · 23/02/2021 12:16

Pothole, I think this is one of the odd little internal structures in the identity-above-all ideology. If someone has an experience that fits into one of the pre-ordained identities that are permitted to speak with authority, they are allowed a very little leeway. The nature of identity-above-all has to permit this concession for the rest of the edifice to remain standing.

However, it's important that limits be placed on this authority, because otherwise, it doesn't serve the purpose of allowing those who have experienced no oppression to benefit from the reflected attention etc.

Does that make sense? Basically, if they went after Hibo directly, they would knock over their own reasoning. By doing it more obliquely, they still get to use her as leverage for their own ends.

PotholeParadies · 23/02/2021 11:53

Clarification. Not rhetorical question. Genuone question. It's something I'm sincerely trying to get my head around.

PotholeParadies · 23/02/2021 11:51

This kind of group collaboration, sharing factual information between concerned citizens, might be why certain people hate mumsnet.

On the subject of the abuse Hibo was getting, can someone explain to me the moral difference in stance between "I would never criticise Hibo's language as she's an FGM survivor but I will publicly tell other people off for being transphobic if they defend her against people calling her transphobic!" and... criticising Hibo's language for being transphobic?

I saw it a lot on twitter.

The first one seems exactly like attacking Hibo while denying what you're doing.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/02/2021 11:39

Wow, wasn't aware it was that person.

CoffeeTeaChocolate · 23/02/2021 11:09

Those articles are a shocking read.

PotholeParadies · 23/02/2021 10:55

Can I just bring up the co-founder of Black Trans Lives Matter?

This is the gushing profile in Time.
time.com/collection/american-voices-2017/4573664/american-vocies-cherno-biko/

Here is the womenarehuman entry: www.womenarehuman.com/male-trans-rights-activist-who-identifies-as-woman-rapes-woman-cherno-biko/

And this very powerful article here

www.fpiw.org/blog/2016/08/11/there-was-a-certain-rape-a-look-inside-the-transgender-movement/

[Extract]
For reasons of personal safety and livelihood, I can’t tell you who I am. But I can tell you this much: I’m a progressive feminist who has spent years working on the front lines of the left. I have opposed conservatism my entire political life in the most strident of terms; under other circumstances, I wouldn’t admit to even reading this site.

Yet, I’ve known for a while that questioning the official narrative of transgender activism (a cause championed wholeheartedly and without question by nearly everyone on the left) can get you blacklisted from media and political work.

HermitsLife · 23/02/2021 10:47

@BuntingEllacott

Privileged woman blunders into the reception her arrogant pontifications should get when practised on women and girls who have suffered for being female, and has a tiny inkling that her theoretical bullshit is just that, but still has to lob a 'I'm sad about the uncompliant woman of colour, but I know I'm right' as she slinks away. Grim
Yep.
Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/02/2021 10:21

When people say black lives matter, if some religious leaders piped up saying, ah but you should say Catholic black lives and protestant black lives matter, that would be ridiculous.
Because it's a category mistake. It's not about religion, it's the skin colour that people discriminate against.

I think it's striking that the only group to be added in this way were trans people: "black trans lives matter". Not gay men, lesbians, even LGBT as a whole. Not women. Trans.

HeirloomTomato · 23/02/2021 04:45

Once again, convincing evidence that MRAs have latched on to the trans rights cause as a convenient, unassailable way to silence women from speaking out against patriarchal misogyny. Who else could hate women this much?

Delphinium20 · 23/02/2021 04:11

Wardere is a survivor of brutal genital mutilation and fights today against this barbaric practice. For this she deserves huge respect.

Even in this context, she still couldn't include 'female' before genital mutilation.

7Days · 22/02/2021 23:06

When people say black lives matter, if some religious leaders piped up saying, ah but you should say Catholic black lives and protestant black lives matter, that would be ridiculous.
Because it's a category mistake. It's not about religion, it's the skin colour that people discriminate against.
Likewise, with FGM it's not about the gender identity. It's about the visible and obvious female body.

It's proseltysing.